The Return Of Jesus

Hmm...earlier you wrote:

So which is it? The things that Jesus spoke to His disciples (including, by the way, parables) will have a tremendous impact; or the things that Jesus spoke to His disciples are "sketchy doctrine"?

 

I'm glad you asked.
In the Original Post the comparison was made between Matthew 24 and Thessalonians.
In Matthew 24 Jesus is addressing his 12 disciples privately. These disciples are JEWS practicing the Mosiac Law in the Temple.
Am I a Jew? NO
Am I practicing Mosiac Law? NO
Is there a Temple in Jerusalem? NO

There are elements of Matthew 24 which have not yet been fulfilled.
Will there be Jewish disciples of Christ during the Tribulation? YES
Will this passage in Matthew 24 have much importance to these disciples? YES
Will the Temple be rebuilt in Jerusalem? YES
Will the Mosiac Law be reestablished in Israel? YES

 

It doesn't sound like you've actually read Matthew 13. He didn't just give a parable; He gave the interpretation & application of the parable too. Try fitting ALL endtime references into your theology; not just the ones that seem to match it on their own.

 

"End-Time"? That would be when TIME ends and ETERNITY remains.
Try comparing Matt 13:36-39 with Revelation 20.

"Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Rev 20:
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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You are changing what I say in the same manner as you change God's Word. When I use the term "endtime", any reader knows that I am referring to the entirety of yet future prophetic passages. I wrote "endtime" not "the end of time". It's those little changes which lead to false doctrine. It's called using proper grammatical interpretation instead of reading your own views into the text.

The Rev 20 passage occurs after the gathering of all unbelievers & then believers. Why do you not believe the words of Jesus Himself? He said the unbelievers will be gathered from the earth first by His angels.

BTW, do you actually believe Jesus will return riding on a white, fluffy cloud or do you understand the reference to be figurative judgement language? Have you ever studied the history of judgement language within the OT? It would be a very profitable study for you.

Jesus used an old Jewish method of teaching in Matthew 13 & 24? In chapter 24 He was expounding on what was said in chapter 13. How is it you don't see the clear parallel between the two gatherings by His angels. They are describing the same event in different ways. This literary tool is used throughout the OT; beginning in the first chapters of Genesis.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mat 24:30-31)

 

Don't "assume" that everyone "knows" what you are referring to.
Perhaps you should have used the word "endtimes" (plural) as that would indicate a SERIES of events in eschatology.

Rev 20:2-5
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Sounds to me like there are at least a thousand+ years left in the future for the planet and its inhabitants. "First resurrection" seems to indicate that there are more "resurrections". So would you be indicating that those 1000+ years must be completed before any "believers" are "gathered" to the Lord?

"fluffy white cloud"??? You sound like a scoffer.
Have you not read Acts 1:9-11?

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

But hey, don't let the inspired Word of God get in the way of your preconceived ideas.
I take the Word of God very seriously... and LITERALLY (except where it CLEARLY indicates it is symbolic.)

 

Scoffer? I scoff at your literal interpretation of symbolic language. Answer me this. Did God actually come riding into Egypt on a cloud in Isaiah 19 when He visited judgement on them?

 

Did God actually lead Israel out of Egypt and through the wilderness by a cloud during the day and by a pillar of fire by night??

 

Interesting how the actual question is avoided by asking an unrelated question. Yes, he led them by a cloud & fire. The passages which speak to the cloud & fire are historical language which speak to real events, not prophetic language written in symbolism & metaphor. Now, please try answering the actual question.

 

Is there a reason not to take it literally. Examine the Scripture. If there is no reason not to take it literally, then the rule of thumb is that we ought to do so.

The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. (Isaiah 19:1)

Is it plausible that the Lord will come and mete out judgment, coming in a cloud? Yes, that is plausible. Why not? Is there other Scripture that is in harmony with this?

And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. (Psalms 18:10)

Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: (Psalms 104:3)

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. (Daniel 7:13)

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

It appears that the rest of Scripture is in harmony with this view.

 

I must then conclude that you believe God came riding into Egypt on a cloud of water vapor when He sent judgement upon their land. Is it also plausible that the Jews rode out of Egypt on eagles (Exodus 9:4), God has feathers (Ruth 2:12), Jesus has a real sword in His mouth (Revelation 1:16), or that the actual stars in the universe will fall to the earth (Mark 13:25)? According to your hermeneutic, would they not all be plausible? I will not hang my theology on what is merely possible. Any thing is possible(plausible) with an almighty God, but that does not make figurative language into literal. Clouds were commonly used as a figure of judgement in Jewish literature.

 

A cloud is a "thing" that is, something tangible. It is noted and repeated in Scripture over and over again especially with respect to the Lord's coming. In Mat.24:30; Mk.8:38; Acts 1:17-20; 1Thes.4:16-18, we note that Christ is coming in the clouds, in power and glory, with his angels, as he went in a cloud he will come in a cloud. He is coming. He is coming in the clouds or in a cloud. It seems that to deny such a vast amount of Scripture would be to deny this Scriptural truth itself. His return is a literal return.

Secondly, all the other references you gave can be easily explained.
God is a spirit; they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth (Jn.4:24). That rules out God having eagles' wings. He doesn't. It is a metaphor being used somewhat anthropormorphically, to give us a sense of the power and might of God. If you remember Jesus referred to the wings of a mother hen when he wept over Jerusalem, to express the love and protection he could have given to them. But here it is the wings of an eagle to express might and power, that might and power that was displayed before Pharaoh that brought them out of that land.

We know that God does not have feathers; he is spirit, etc.

But we do know that the Lord is returning, and that when he returns it will be visible, and that he will come in the clouds.

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8:38)

 

I have been taught that the "cloud" of the Lord is the Shekinah glory of God. Jesus left in a "cloud". He will return in the "clouds". This is His glory and it is visible.

 

I wouldn't argue with that interpretation.

 

Yes, Christ is going to physically return to earth; of that we do not disagree. He will destroy all of creation & recreate a new & perfect world on which we will live with Him for all eternity. On this agreement, I will bow out of this debate.

God Bless

P.S. I consider myself to be a pan-millenialist. Because He lives, it will all pan out no matter where we may disagree.