The Right Meaning of Romans

[Iconoclast]

Sola scriptura!

Yes indeed Kyred....that will be all those numbers listed at the bottom of each summary statement.Does your pastor just read scripture quotes or does he help people try to gain a proper understanding Nehemiah 8:8
What does it say in your bible Kyred?
Read8:1-8....They read, worshipped and vs8....they read distinctly, GAVE THE SENSE, AND CAUSED THEM TO READ WITH UNDERSTANDING.
I am sure you know this verse Kyred, but looks like it slipped your mind.

 

[Marooncat79]

The predestination of Romans 8 is unto a Christ-like resurrection body, not salvation.
Imagine an ordo salutis without redemption being mentioned.

The Resurrection of the righteous is salvation from satan, sin and hell

 

[Iconoclast]

The predestination of Romans 8 is unto a Christ-like resurrection body, not salvation.
Imagine an ordo salutis without redemption being mentioned.

This is a willful blindness and perversion of what is offered.
A resurrection body is guaranteed,this golden chain is speaking of the Covenant love of God to the elect.

 

[Marooncat79]

This is a willful blindness and perversion of what is offered.
A resurrection body is guaranteed,this golden chain is speaking of the Covenant love of God to the elect.

Exactly what I thought, but I was going to think about it

 

[DaveXR650]

Peter said Paul’s writings were difficult to understand. Very learned men and women have debated them for 2000 years.

However, I think considering a variety of ideas from people who have devoted their lives to study, especially original languages, can be helpful in understanding.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

I agree. And I am still waiting for someone to suggest to Guido some good non-Calvinist commentaries on Romans. One of the reasons I lean heavily to the Calvinistic system is that it seems that they have all the good writings and they have examined scripture and thought this through.

 

[George Antonios]

The Resurrection of the righteous is salvation from satan, sin and hell

I didn't say predestination to resurrection, I said predestination unto a Christ-like resurrection body (the image [physical] of Christ).
God could have chosen to raise believers without granting them such a body necessarily.

 

[Marooncat79]

Are you espousing a spiritual resurrection?

the Bible says we shall be like him

 

[Marooncat79]

I didn't say predestination to resurrection, I said predestination unto a Christ-like resurrection body (the image [physical] of Christ).
God could have chosen to raise believers without granting them such a body necessarily.

how?

the whole point of the resurrection is the restoration of the fallen human flesh

again, the whole man fell in the garden not just a spiritual fall, but a mortal one as well

 

[Marooncat79]

W/o the preaching of the Gospel shall no flesh be justified

Galatians 2:16

that indicates that Christ redeems the whole man

 

[JamesL]

The predestination of Romans 8 is unto a Christ-like resurrection body, not salvation.
Imagine an ordo salutis without redemption being mentioned.

Predestination is actually unto sonship
Related keywords: heir, glory, inheritance

But I like that you recognize that it's not an ordo salutis in the Reformed tradition

 

[JamesL]

W/o the preaching of the Gospel shall no flesh be justified

Galatians 2:16

that indicates that Christ redeems the whole man

But not at once, and not exclusively believers.

Everyone - even unbelievers - will be raised bodily, which is redemption.

 

[JamesL]

James! Good to see you back!

Thanks, brother

 

[Guido]

Could you please clarify? I am not sure I understood you.

Sorry. I thought what I wrote was clear.

I believe that the book of Romans is written to believers in Christ, to set forth the gospel to them in order to help them win more souls to Christ among their number.

But I'm not sure about this. Paul seems to use the word called to mean appointed or Saint, and he says their "faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Evidently, he is writing to believers, and only believers.

He also seems to want the having of "some fruit" among them, the meaning of which confuses me. This, along with my thoughts on the whole thought from the beginning of Romans through its theme, is the reason why I considered whether what I said was the purpose.

But I acknowledge that my understanding is imperfect, even though I strained myself very hard to concentrate. It had been hard to follow people's speech.

Now I realize the fruit may be their own personal righteousness. There is much that Zane Hodges got right, albeit not everything.

I was doing exegesis as well as I could, with my limited understanding of hermeneutics.

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry. I thought what I wrote was clear.

I believe that the book of Romans is written to believers in Christ, to set forth the gospel to them in order to help them win more souls to Christ among their number.

But I'm not sure about this. Paul seems to use the word called to mean appointed or Saint, and he says their "faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." Evidently, he is writing to believers, and only believers.

He also seems to want the having of "some fruit" among them, the meaning of which confuses me. This, along with my thoughts on the whole thought from the beginning of Romans through its theme, is the reason why I considered whether what I said was the purpose.

But I acknowledge that my understanding is imperfect, even though I strained myself very hard to concentrate. It had been hard to follow people's speech.

Now I realize the fruit may be their own personal righteousness. There is much that Zane Hodges got right, albeit not everything.

I was doing exegesis as well as I could, with my limited understanding of hermeneutics.

The “fruit” Paul spoke of receiving from the Christians at Rome was money to support a missionary journey into Spain.

Paul normally writes to churches he had founded to answer questions those folks had sent to him.

The church at Rome was founded by Christians leaving Jerusalem after Pentecost and the persecution that followed.

As such, they were mostly Jews who believed Jesus as Messiah and God-fearing Gentiles that worship according to Judaism.

Paul’s ministry was to Gentiles, though he usually began preaching in synagogues, wherever he went.

So, Paul, not the founder of the church but a well known Apostle, wrote to the Romans that they both would be encouraged and strengthened.

He is writing to Christians with a strong leaning into Judaism and spends an enormous amount of effort explaining the relationship between what they knew from the OT (justification by works of the law) and the truth that came with Christ Jesus (salvation by grace).

hope that helps

peace to you

 

[George Antonios]

Predestination is actually unto sonship
Related keywords: heir, glory, inheritance

But I like that you recognize that it's not an ordo salutis in the Reformed tradition

The sonship, as far as adoption, not regeneration, is the resurrection.

 

[Guido]

The “fruit” Paul spoke of receiving from the Christians at Rome was money to support a missionary journey into Spain.

Paul normally writes to churches he had founded to answer questions those folks had sent to him.

The church at Rome was founded by Christians leaving Jerusalem after Pentecost and the persecution that followed.

As such, they were mostly Jews who believed Jesus as Messiah and God-fearing Gentiles that worship according to Judaism.

Paul’s ministry was to Gentiles, though he usually began preaching in synagogues, wherever he went.

So, Paul, not the founder of the church but a well known Apostle, wrote to the Romans that they both would be encouraged and strengthened.

He is writing to Christians with a strong leaning into Judaism and spends an enormous amount of effort explaining the relationship between what they knew from the OT (justification by works of the law) and the truth that came with Christ Jesus (salvation by grace).

hope that helps

peace to you

I see. Thank you for explaining that to me.

 

[Guido]

I just received a book I ordered in the mail today, a book called "Chosen for Grace", which I found at monergism.com, doubting if I should even read it, because I know that the Bible teaches that: God loves everyone, God wants everyone to be saved, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and we are free to accept or reject the gift of eternal life by acknowledging or dismissing what Christ has done for us.

 

[DaveXR650]

Really? Did you buy it directly from them?

 

[JamesL]

I just received a book I ordered in the mail today, a book called "Chosen for Grace", which I found at monergism.com, doubting if I should even read it, because I know that the Bible teaches that: God loves everyone, God wants everyone to be saved, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and we are free to accept or reject the gift of eternal life by acknowledging or dismissing what Christ has done for us.

I'm genuinely curious....

You seem to have a firm conviction of the parameters within which you're willing to entertain various viewpoints.

What, pray tell, are you hoping to glean from Romans that you don't already have?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks. I'll definitely read it.

If Calvinists don't teach random selection for salvation, then what do they teach about unconditional election?

As others have pointed out, God is never random, but He is sovereign, 'according to His own purpose' or 'will' (2 Timothy 1:9; c.f. Ephesians 1:5, 9, 11). Not a day goes by that I do not praise God for unconditional election and irresistible drawing.

1 Lord, I was blind: I could not see
in thy marred visage any grace;
but now the beauty of thy face
in radiant vision dawns on me.

2 Lord, I was deaf: I could not hear
the thrilling music of thy voice;
but now I hear thee and rejoice,
and all thine uttered words are dear.

3 Lord, I was dumb: I could not speak
the grace and glory of thy name;
but now, as touched with living flame,
my lips thine eager praises wake.

4 Lord, I was dead: I could not stir
my lifeless soul to come to thee;
but now, since thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

5 Lord, thou hast made the blind to see,
the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
the dead to live; and lo, I break
the chains of my captivity! [William T. Matson]

If there is one set of verses in Romans that I would particularly commend to you it is Romans 11:33-36.