-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Role of Women
- Thread starter Sai
- Start date
- Status
Oh dear. Do you really believe that ALL women are deceived and men are not?
Here's what the Bible says about people being deceived.
- Eve was deceived by sin. Genesis 3:13. She herself, acknowledge that and told God. She tried to use that as an excuse, but she certainly saw clearly what had happened. She wasn't a perpetual idiot.
- In Deuteronomy 11:16, Moses warned the people about to cross over that they should be very careful as their hearts could be deceived and they would worship other gods.
- Paul said in Romans 7:11 that he, himself had been deceived by sin and it killed him [spiritually speaking].
- 2 Corinthians 11:3 - Paul warns the church at Corinth that just as Eve was deceived, that their church was also being led astray from devotion to Christ.
- JESUS CHRIST, himself, says in Revelation 12 that the devil deceives the WHOLE WORLD.
Being deceived in not a female trait. It is a human trait.
I realize that men like you and many others literally believe that women are inferior intellectually, spiritually, and morally. I've heard all of that here since 2002.
But it just isn't true. God did say that women in the church should not USURP authority in the church.
But God never said women were the only ones deceived. He never said deception was a female flaw. He never said that they were "easily deceived" [which is what I was taught as a young person].
In terms of women being deceived, he only speaks of one - Eve. Jesus Christ explains the whole human race is deceived.
Sai
Well-Known Member
Paul gives theological reasons for (1) silence, (2) head covering, and (3) modest apparel
Joy unspeakable full of glory
What does that have to do with deception of the human race and that men are just as deceived as women?
Besides, Paul also said women could pray and prophesy in church as long as they wore a head covering. That was for teaching angels..[1 Corinthians 11] So what do you think the silence is for in chapter 14? Try reading 1 Corinthians 14 and see why wives were told if they had questions to wait until they get home to ask their husbands.
There was chaos with people speaking in tongues over each other, prophesying over each other, and wives trying to ask questions out loud. [At that time, women had not been included in synagogues or any other religious participation so when Christianity included women, there were many questions.
Three groups were told to be quiet in church - those speaking in tongues out of order, those prophesying out of order, and wives speaking to their husbands about what was happening - that was out of order.
That's what chapter 14 is about. Stopping chaos in the church service by creating order.
Today, however, I know many, many women and wives who don't have to ask a man anything about the Bible. They study it, listen to good preaching, and read for themselves and there are MANY smart women out there.
Sai
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
A good point.
Christians are told to "bless those that curse us", but the Government "is given the sword for a reason", so God clearly sets different rules for the Government and His Church.
Does anyone remember Deborah? Not a Priest, but a Judge.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Think about the absolute tragedy that Adam sinned willfully. He was not deceived. It is through his willful act of sin that brought sin to every person that has ever lived.
If you claim women are easily deceived in matters of religion, then follow through the logic and claim men are prone to deliberate rebellion against God.
Amazing Eve did not forsake him for willfully sinning against God and then blaming her for his moral failure.
Looks like that pattern of blaming women for the moral failures of men continues to this very day.
peace to you
Adam was the head in the relationship.
Many Christians and many churches believe that this means male privilege, being served as a Master, and getting to call the shots based on personal needs and preference. I'm not making this up.
It doesn't mean any of that. Husband headship is a serious and grave responsibility. It's a leadership role as a servant-leader - just like Christ's role in that regard. Christ said he did not come to BE served, but TO serve. Husband headship requires strict spiritual discipline on his part. He is responsible for the spiritual protection of the family......AND he is to love his wife more than his own body and self.
Adam displayed none of this.
- no responsible leadership
- no strict and personal spiritual discipline
- no protective attitude nor actions
- no love for her above himself or he would have intervened on her behalf
It's only when a woman finds a wonderful and godly husband does she get relief from that curse of being "ruled over". Instead, she has a protector who FIRST protects his own heart and mind.
You seem to have the idea that Adam should have forsaken Eve. Well, he didn't. He got up [as he was THERE WITH her when the devil tempted her] and ate the fruit out of rebellion against God.
If he had spit in God's face, it wouldn't have been worse than what he did with the fruit.
Both men and women sin - both men and women sin today from deception, the Bible is clear on that.
.
God placed the blame upon Adam, not Eve!
KenH
Well-Known Member
Milton puts it well in Paradise Lost:
"O fairest of Creation, last and best
Of all God's works, Creature in whom excelled
Whatever can to sight or thought be formed,
Holy, divine, good, amiable, or sweet!
How art thou lost! how on a sudden lost,
Defaced, deflowered, and now to death devote!
Rather, how hast thou yielded to transgress
The strict forbiddance, how to violate
The sacred fruit forbidden! Some cursed fraud
Of enemy hath beguiled thee, yet unknown,
And me with thee hath ruined; for with thee
Certain my resolution is to die:
How can I live without thee! how forego
Thy sweet converse, and love so dearly joined,
To live again in these wild woods forlorn!
Should God create another Eve, and I
Another rib afford, yet loss of thee
Would never from my heart: no, no!I feel
The link of Nature draw me: flesh of flesh,
Bone of my bone thou art, and from thy state
Mine never shall be parted, bliss or woe.
So having said, as one from sad dismay
Recomforted, and after thoughts disturbed
Submitting to what seemed remediless,
Thus in calm mood his words to Eve he turned.
Bold deed thou hast presumed, adventurous Eve,
And peril great provoked, who thus hast dared,
Had it been only coveting to eye
That sacred fruit, sacred to abstinence,
Much more to taste it under ban to touch.
But past who can recall, or done undo?
Not God Omnipotent, nor Fate; yet so
Perhaps thou shalt not die, perhaps the fact
Is not so heinous now, foretasted fruit,
Profaned first by the serpent, by him first
Made common, and unhallowed, ere our taste;
Nor yet on him found deadly; yet he lives;
Lives, as thou saidst, and gains to live, as Man,
Higher degree of life; inducement strong
To us, as likely tasting to attain
Proportional ascent; which cannot be
But to be Gods, or Angels, demi-Gods.
Nor can I think that God, Creator wise,
Though threatening, will in earnest so destroy
Us his prime creatures, dignified so high,
Set over all his works; which in our fall,
For us created, needs with us must fail,
Dependant made; so God shall uncreate,
Be frustrate, do, undo, and labour lose;
Not well conceived of God, who, though his power
Creation could repeat, yet would be loath
Us to abolish, lest the Adversary
Triumph, and say; "Fickle their state whom God
"Most favours; who can please him long? Me first
"He ruined, now Mankind; whom will he next?"
Matter of scorn, not to be given the Foe.
However I with thee have fixed my lot,
Certain to undergo like doom: If death
Consort with thee, death is to me as life;
So forcible within my heart I feel
The bond of Nature draw me to my own;
My own in thee, for what thou art is mine;
Our state cannot be severed; we are one,
One flesh; to lose thee were to lose myself." (emphasis mine)
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Not so, but on Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, all.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
It is an intriguing point that only Adam knew the feeling of being alone with no companion at all, most especially no mate. Eve only knew of having her husband.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Yes, a point I am thoroughly familiar with in my personal life experience this year.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
I would say yours is worse, because of knowing the former, then having, then losing. Adam could still only imagine the latter. Had Milton already lost his wife by this time?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Not challenging your main point, but am curious of the need to make the fruit edible only by getting up. Got up from where? Why? The text says Eve also gave the fruit to her husband with her. Is this extra point really important to your thesis?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Milton had two wives die by 1658, which was the same year he began composing Paradise Lost.
He married a third time in 1663 and she outlived him.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[Gen 3:14-19 KJV]
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
From what I read,
- the serpent was directly cursed,
- Eve suffered consequences because she was deceived but no mention of a curse,
- Adam suffered consequences while the “ground” was cursed because of Adam’s choice.
Sai
Well-Known Member
“and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Genesis 3:16b ASV
See post above. You display the desire to usurp the man by targeting Adam.
If Adam did not know evil he would not have known the intent of the serpent who was having a dialogue with Eve. And he would not have known Eve’s susceptibility to deception. It was in Adam’s nature to follow Eve because he did not want to lose the only created being that belonged to him, he owned her, he named her.
Joy unspeakable full of glory
- Status