The Root...of Doctrinal Apostasy...what is that?

[TCassidy]

The phrase "separation between church & state" comes from a letter written in 1802 by Thomas Jefferson, to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

Jefferson was repeating Roger Williams, who wrote in 1644, "A hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world."

 

[TCassidy]

Define Pastor

He who shepherds the assembly.

define Deacon

He who serves the assembly.

what about elder lead?

Pastors and Deacons are all elders.

Then what Doctrines are considered correct?

I don't understand your question. My post dealt with the Baptist Distinctives, which, as presented, are not exhaustive.

But the Doctrine of the Triune Nature of the Godhead would come under "Bible as Sole Authority." The Triune Nature of the Godhead is fully attested to in the Scriptures.

 

[TCassidy]

By your definition of ‘Baptist’, most Baptists probably aren’t Baptist.

Why not?

What happened to the Biblical Elders?

Nothing that I know of. Ours are doing quite well, thank you.

When did Seperation of Church and State become a spiritual distinctive rather than a political distinctive?

When Adam recognized the Sovereignty of God. And was reinforced when Jesus said "Upon this rock I will built MY church." Not the government's. HIS church.

Particular Baptists aren’t Baptists?

All the ones I know are.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Reformed,

. However, his total apostasy from the Christian faith proves that he possessed head knowledge only. He was excited by the scholarship that theological study offered but not the spiritual aspect of it. Sadly, evangelicalism has more than a few people like this still within its ranks. Not every apostate has abandoned the faith completely. Some hang on and work their evil within Christendom.

Yes indeed Reformed....many times it is a process and happens over time.

You identify a problem with the persons spirit....I think the outward apostasy starts internally as you have noted earlier....a failure to obey this verse;
prov4;
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
and here...
psalm78:
8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

they tempted God in their heart

they spake against God

10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world,

 

[Reformed]

The phrase "separation between church & state" comes from a letter written in 1802 by Thomas Jefferson, to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut.

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

Jefferson was repeating Roger Williams, who wrote in 1644, "A hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world."

Indeed. However, many politicians and Progressive scholars read that phrase into the 1st Amendment of the Constitution and tried to use it as justification to mute the church from speaking with authority in the public arena. Constitutionally there is no separation of church and state, only the prohibition of the state from establishing a national religion or of it intruding into the affairs of the church. Theologically speaking, I do not see how the separation of church and state is a Baptist distinctive. Churches should speak to the issues of the day, proclaiming the truth in the face increasing godliness.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Indeed. However, many politicians and Progressive scholars read that phrase into the 1st Amendment of the Constitution and tried to use it as justification to mute the church from speaking with authority in the public arena. Constitutionally there is no separation of church and state, only the prohibition of the state from establishing a national religion or of it intruding into the affairs of the church. Theologically speaking, I do not see how the separation of church and state is a Baptist distinctive. Churches should speak to the issues of the day, proclaiming the truth in the face increasing godliness.

Politics is godless so why should any Christian want to delve into it?

 

[Reformed]

Politics is godless so why should any Christian want to delve into it?

Because some moral issues are co-opted by politicians. Think of marriage and the sanctity of human life. The church should proclaim the biblical truth about these issues, both inside and outside the walls of the worship sanctuary. I am not saying the church should become political itself, like the Moral Majority in the 1980's. The Moral Majority made the error of placing trust in the Republican Party, only to be cast aside when it was no longer relevant. The church should remain independent of a party so that it can stand for the truth without compromise or equivocation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sometimes a person who is over zealous believes they have solved a theological issue as if no one in history has seen those verses in the bible before.
They were against a theological truth before they opened their bible...so they ignored all previous schlorship on that topic.
They insert their own carnal ideas in the place of scripture.
They go past the safeguards...declaring that they have the bible and the Spirit....they do not need the "works of men"...
No one can correct them of course...because they alone have "found" this new truth.....
They withdraw from friends who try and correct them...they withdraw from church....they are lone rangers who struggle.
They go on message boards....promote their bogus teaching.
Even Marshall Applewhite...got 39 people to die trying to go on the comet....

 

[loDebar]

Apostasy is the change of an accepted position to one that is not.. Not the belief in error.

plural apostasies
1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty :

Technically, Paul is apostate when compared to Judaism, Martin Luther when compared to Catholicism.

Some new Christians, non Jewish, in the NT could never be considered apostate.

Doctrinal errors sprout on their owm

 

[Yeshua1]

In another thread this term was used and misunderstood by a reader....
let's sort this out.....

What is Apostasy? what does that term signify?

What is Doctrinal Apostasy?

is it the same as personal Apostasy from the faith?

What would be meant by...."the root" of doctrinal apostasy?

Here is a helpful article...some things to consider;
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christ...s-apostasy-a-biblical-definition-of-apostasy/

Apostasy would be doctrinal deviation from the truths of Christianity, to deny the Fundamental Christian doctrines of the faith!

 

[atpollard]

Apostasy is the change of an accepted position to one that is not.. Not the belief in error.

I guess, technically, the belief in error would be called 'heresy':

Theopedia:

Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word hairesis, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducees (5:17), Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.

While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it. John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).
​

 

[agedman]

Apostasy in the church has very little to do with the world systems of governance other than how that governance will attempt to influence and control the church.

Apostasy in the church is the departure of and replacement of the sovereignty of God with human rationalization. It is reflected in the modern church by the abundance of folks who chase after every "wind of doctrine" as if it is valid, and place emphasis upon feelings and thinking rather than on the quotation of Scriptures.

But, this is as the Scriptures do teach. That significant to the last times is that great falling away from the truth, that great embracing of error, that replacement of Holy Spirit cleansing and leading with worldly affections and attractions.

What is sadder is the mocking and shamming that comes from those supposed believers when they are confronted with the Bible. The Scriptures become repulsive to them, they no longer can be brought under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and have no desire but for power, praise, and profit.

Is this not as Hebrews 6 states? Has there ever been an apostate that could or would recant and repent?
Does history bear witness of any, even one?

 

[Yeshua1]

I guess, technically, the belief in errort would be called 'heresy':

Theopedia:

Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word hairesis, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducees (5:17), Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.

While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it. John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).
​

Can a real Christian do either though?

 

[atpollard]

Can a real Christian do either though?

Perhaps for a season.

The Sheep was able to wander off, requiring the Shepherd to leave the 99 and bring it back.
The Prodigal Son went out into the world for a while before coming to his senses and returning home to the arms of his ever waiting father.

Can one of God's fore-loved, struggle to earn his salvation because he listened to a serpent's whisper? Perhaps for a season, until either he comes to his senses or the Good Shepherd guides him back to the flock.

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps for a season.

The Sheep was able to wander off, requiring the Shepherd to leave the 99 and bring it back.
The Prodigal Son went out into the world for a while before coming to his senses and returning home to the arms of his ever waiting father.

Can one of God's fore-loved, struggle to earn his salvation because he listened to a serpent's whisper? Perhaps for a season, until either he comes to his senses or the Good Shepherd guides him back to the flock.

That makes sense, as one , for example, could be beguiled to getting into Charismatic extremes, but fins their way back out!

 

[agedman]

Perhaps for a season.

The Sheep was able to wander off, requiring the Shepherd to leave the 99 and bring it back.
The Prodigal Son went out into the world for a while before coming to his senses and returning home to the arms of his ever waiting father.

Can one of God's fore-loved, struggle to earn his salvation because he listened to a serpent's whisper? Perhaps for a season, until either he comes to his senses or the Good Shepherd guides him back to the flock.

Ah, the idea that one can choose salvation and struggle to earn the salvation is certainly not seen as the sheep and the son.

What is interesting to me is that the unquestioned ownership of both of these already long settled by heritage and purchase, despite their wandering.

The Shepherd didn't guide, but took him "on His shoulders" from the wilderness to the flock left in the open country. The son did not run to the father, the father ran to the son hugging him, embracing him, declaring him still a son.

The apostate has no care nor desire to be brought back, they will die rather than repent and acknowledge their error.

 

[agedman]

That makes sense, as one , for example, could be beguiled to getting into Charismatic extremes, but fins their way back out!

But that is different from the apostate.

The apostate never finds their way back out.

Hebrews 6 fits the apostate, it does not fit the heretic.

One who strays into "charismatic extremes" is embracing that which is heretical.

One who departs from the gospel once delivered by the apostles is an apostate.

 

[loDebar]

But that is different from the apostate.

The apostate never finds their way back out.

Hebrews 6 fits the apostate, it does not fit the heretic.

One who strays into "charismatic extremes" is embracing that which is heretical.

One who departs from the gospel once delivered by the apostles is an apostate.

Heb 6 is not apostasy despite claims and commentaries but security of the believer, being saved once.

We Baptist were considered apostate or rather heretics because we are not Catholic.

 

[agedman]

Heb 6 is not apostasy despite claims and commentaries but security of the believer, being saved once.

We Baptist were considered apostate or rather heretics because we are not Catholic.

I disagree with how you would work through Hebrews 6 in this matter.

Hebrews 6 is about those who became apostates. They are not saved. They are as the seed scattered upon shallow soil which grew for a bit but withered.


Do you not see that In this part?

7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

There is no salvation to be found in the apostate. There never was.

 

[atpollard]

Ah, the idea that one can choose salvation and struggle to earn the salvation is certainly not seen as the sheep and the son.

Ah you foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?

One can start out well, stray off the narrow path to the left or right as a backslider or into legalism, and find your way back to the path. It is not salvation that I had in mind (which was settled before the foundation of the Earth) but the “walk” (sanctification).