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The Roots of Catholicism

Ray Berrian

New Member
Copied . . .
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From Jesus to Constantine: 30--313


Interpretation and the Bible

The earliest Christian scriptures were the same as the
Jewish community. When writers in the New Testament
refer to "scripture," they mean the Hebrew scriptures of their day.

Early Christian interpretations of scriptures used techniques similar to
those used by Jewish interpreters, including prophecy, allegory, and
typology. , Both groups understood the Scriptures as containing
timeless truths that could be made relevant to their contemporary
communities through new interpretations. They also believed that divine
revelation influenced interpretation.

Christians approached scriptural interpretation through their
understanding of who Christ was. The Hebrew scriptures were
understood to be looking forward to the coming of Jesus Christ, the
Messiah, who was the fulfillment of prophecy.

Philo of Alexandria

Philo (c. 15 BCE-50 CE) lived in the biggest Jewish
community outside of Israel. He was a Jewish philosopher
and interpreter of Torah as it existed in the Greek
translation of the Hebrew scriptures called the Septuagint.

Philo used the allegorical method of interpretation of the
Pentateuch in his commentaries. His exegesis offered
multiple interpretations of the same verse. He learned this
method from the Greeks, who had developed allegory in
order to bring alive their ancient myths, which no longer
were relevant if interpreted literally.

Philo was an apologist for Judaism and sought to show,
through allegorical and symbolic methods, that Jewish
culture was not inferior to Hellenistic culture. For example,
he interpreted Moses as philosopher who was the source of
all later philosophy. He was also influenced by the doctrine
of the Logos, which was also popular in early Christian
interpretations of who Jesus was.

Early Christian scholars admired Philo's work a lot. Both
Clement of Alexandria and Origen were influenced by his
methods. Because Christians admired his work so much, his
writings were preserved.

Some of the principles of interpretation that were
established by Philo and those in his tradition include:

The literal sense of a scriptural passage is rejected
if it raises a factual or theological contradiction
The silence of scripture is significant
A single word is often the key for interpretation
Word studies can uncover the meaning of
scripture.

Ray is saying, 'When multiple interpretations are included it is like the Indian saying goes, 'Man speaks with forked tongue. This should have thrown up a red flag to any vibrant Christian in the early days of the church. We are encouraged in the N.T. Scripture to 'rightly divide the word of truth' not to give various explanations as to what it might be. Philo and Clement of Alexandria and Origen were operating with sub-christian standards and it is still happening today when Catholics and some Protestants interpret the Book of Revelation allegorically or with a quasi-spiritual interpretation. In this way the truth is forever lost to brethren who are searching for Christ's truth coming from said book.'
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bill said --
Anglicans didn't just "come along," as they were once Catholics! Before them, the Church was simply called "The Catholic Church." The Orthodox schism occurred circa AD 1000, onto which they coined the term "Orthodox" since they claimed to carry on the true faith, whereas the "Church at Rome" did not.
You see? You used "Rome" to identify the church - and you also used the historic phrase "the church at Rome".

I find it hard (apparently as hard as you find it) to separate the qualifier from that particular flavor of the Catholic church.

In Christ,

Bob
 

WPutnam

<img src =/2122.jpg>
Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Copied . . .
* * * * * * *


From Jesus to Constantine: 30--313


Interpretation and the Bible

The earliest Christian scriptures were the same as the
Jewish community. When writers in the New Testament
refer to "scripture," they mean the Hebrew scriptures of their day.
Interestingly, those same Jewish Christians seemingly spoke Greek, as I understand that the Septuagint was their favorite Old Testament text! And of course, that text contained the (gasp!) deuterocanonicals!

http://www.catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

I am not saying that the Hebrew text was not also used, but it seems that the Septuagint was the "Jewish" Christian sourse from the git go.

Early Christian interpretations of scriptures used techniques similar to
those used by Jewish interpreters, including prophecy, allegory, and
typology. , Both groups understood the Scriptures as containing
timeless truths that could be made relevant to their contemporary
communities through new interpretations. They also believed that divine
revelation influenced interpretation.
OK...

Christians approached scriptural interpretation through their
understanding of who Christ was. The Hebrew scriptures were
understood to be looking forward to the coming of Jesus Christ, the
Messiah, who was the fulfillment of prophecy.
Not the Septuagint text, Ray?

Philo of Alexandria

Philo (c. 15 BCE-50 CE) lived in the biggest Jewish
community outside of Israel. He was a Jewish philosopher
and interpreter of Torah as it existed in the Greek
translation of the Hebrew scriptures called the Septuagint.
BINGO! (Famous Catholic word!)


Philo used the allegorical method of interpretation of the
Pentateuch in his commentaries. His exegesis offered
multiple interpretations of the same verse. He learned this
method from the Greeks, who had developed allegory in
order to bring alive their ancient myths, which no longer
were relevant if interpreted literally.
"Myths," as in story telling to make a moral/theological point or "myths" that are simple fables?

Philo was an apologist for Judaism and sought to show,
through allegorical and symbolic methods, that Jewish
culture was not inferior to Hellenistic culture. For example,
he interpreted Moses as philosopher who was the source of
all later philosophy. He was also influenced by the doctrine
of the Logos, which was also popular in early Christian
interpretations of who Jesus was.

Early Christian scholars admired Philo's work a lot. Both
Clement of Alexandria and Origen were influenced by his
methods. Because Christians admired his work so much, his
writings were preserved.

Some of the principles of interpretation that were
established by Philo and those in his tradition include:

The literal sense of a scriptural passage is rejected
if it raises a factual or theological contradiction
The silence of scripture is significant
A single word is often the key for interpretation
Word studies can uncover the meaning of
scripture.
And your point is...........

Ray is saying, 'When multiple interpretations are included it is like the Indian saying goes, 'Man speaks with forked tongue. This should have thrown up a red flag to any vibrant Christian in the early days of the church. We are encouraged in the N.T. Scripture to 'rightly divide the word of truth' not to give various explanations as to what it might be. Philo and Clement of Alexandria and Origen were operating with sub-christian standards and it is still happening today when Catholics and some Protestants interpret the Book of Revelation allegorically or with a quasi-spiritual interpretation. In this way the truth is forever lost to brethren who are searching for Christ's truth coming from said book.'
Bill Putnam is saying, it seems to me that Philo did a pretty good job of finding the truth in scriputral interpretation, not knowing if he erred or not, but the method seems valid.

Remember, however, that we apparently do not know if he "influenced" the need for a literal interpretation of scriptures where it is called for, per my original quote from verses 53 to 56 of John Chapter 6. YOu seem to imply that Philo "influenced" the Church into an erronious direction, which makes me wonder where was Christ's promise that "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Philo is not the Church, Ray, benovolently or malvolently influencial as he may be.

To discern the truth in scripture, my friend, takes an authority, a magisterium of an infallible Church, with the Sacred Traditions of the Church from infancy still intact, even though it is made up of fallible men! And if that is not the holy Spirit in action, I don't know what is!


And that, my friend, is the Catholic Church.


God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.


- St. Vincent Pallotti -
 

WPutnam

<img src =/2122.jpg>
Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Bill said --
Anglicans didn't just "come along," as they were once Catholics! Before them, the Church was simply called "The Catholic Church." The Orthodox schism occurred circa AD 1000, onto which they coined the term "Orthodox" since they claimed to carry on the true faith, whereas the "Church at Rome" did not.
You see? You used "Rome" to identify the church - and you also used the historic phrase "the church at Rome".</font>[/QUOTE]The reason is simple, Ray, the authoritave center of the Western Rite of the church, which is the Latin or "Roman" Rite, is in Rome!

What I am objecting to and correcting you on is the general use of the term "Roman Catholic" to describe all Catholics. My Eastern Rite Catholic brethren would get upset with you if you called them that!


I find it hard (apparently as hard as you find it) to separate the qualifier from that particular flavor of the Catholic church.
That is probably due to the fact that the Latin/Roman Rite is the most prevalent in the Western world, and I really cannot blame you for using the term.

Catholics use it themselves!


I'm just being a little sticky wicky about it, that all!


God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
 

mioque

New Member
The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman and also not an empire.

Ray
The notion that certain or even most parts of the Bible contain multiple layers of meaning isn't heretical in itself. And the notion that everybody interested in allegorical exegesis doesn't have any interest in the historical/literal meaning also doesn't hold water.
Origen for example claimed that all Bible texts had 3 meanings. A historical meaning (A layer of meaning considered unimportant by Philo but certainly not by Origen), an ethical meaning (Origen never shows much interest in this layer) and an allegorical meaning (and here the old eunuch usually turns fruity).
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Mioque,

I agree with what you said, but Catholics and even some Protestants cannot interpret Scripture allegorically and with a literal interpretation at the same time. The school at Alexandria allegorized everything they found in the Bible, and therefore, lost the genuine meaning of the various texts. I have read many of their interpretations and unfortunately, they were watered down and extorted the true meaning of what Almighty God was saying through his penmen.

Catholics would do well to read some of the sad interpretations; in this way they would find their quasi-spiritual roots way back in the late 100's.
 

mioque

New Member
Ray
"I agree with what you said,"
:rolleyes: No you don't, not in the slightest.

"but Catholics and even some Protestants cannot interpret Scripture allegorically and with a literal interpretation at the same time. "
:rolleyes: But ofcourse they can. The notion of multiple layers of meaning that are all significant, isn't that farfetched. Books containing multiple layers of meaning are written all the time.

"The school at Alexandria allegorized everything they found in the Bible, and therefore, lost the genuine meaning of the various texts."
:rolleyes: Depending on your point of view they either added new meanings to the text, or discovered hidden layers of meaning, but that doesn't by definition mean you lose the literal meaning of the text. It can happen, but it isn't certain. It certainly wasn't Origen's aim, allthough a case can be made it was Philo's aim.

"I have read many of their interpretations and unfortunately, they were watered down and extorted the true meaning of what Almighty God was saying through his penmen."
And naturally God lectures you personally on the true meaning of the Bible, like you are some kind of don Camillo. Yes I have read Origenes, Philo and Clemens and yes I disagree with them a lot, just like you do.

"Catholics would do well to read some of the sad interpretations; in this way they would find their quasi-spiritual roots way back in the late 100's."
:rolleyes: Origenes is once again much more the father of Eastern-Orthodox theology than he is the father of Western-Christian theology.
Your disdain for the Alexandrian school is strengthened by your reading of the Bible like it is the manual of some sort of household appliance called Salvation.
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
mioque,

Each Christian has to review what the Alexandrian Catechetical School taught and then come to their own opinions on the matter. One thing I have learned on this board no matter who says what, the other person has another opinion or declares that you are wrong.

Again, you cannot allegorize the Book of Revelation and come up with God's Divine truth. Studying the historical background, the context, and the word pictures, and even perhaps other evangelical and conservative commentators, one will come more than close to the real truth.

When God says 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, there are no two, three, four or five layers of truth. Truth is guess what? Revelation 20 for example is the one layer of truth, meaning a Millennial Kingdom for our beloved Christ that will be on this cosmos.
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Dr. William P. Grady in his book, "Final Authority" he points out that during the Apostolic Age there were regional persons who represented, for the most part, orthodoxy. Western: Clement of Rome (A.D. 30-100), the Antiochian {Antioch} Ignatius 35-110; and Polycarp {A.D. 69-155}; but no Alexandrian Fathers. Why? Because they were as it were 'off the wall' with the exegesis, their allegorical method of explaining Scriptures.

Alexandrian quasi-theologians exist in another form today with the allegorical and quasi-spiritual interpretation of the Book of Revelation. They reject the Millennial Age where Christ will sit enthroned in Jerusalem. [Zechariah chapter 14]
 

neal4christ

New Member
I just did a Google search and yep, it is the King James Only Dr. Grady. :rolleyes: Please, find someone a little more trustworthy to use to support your position. I wonder where all his degrees are from, especially his two doctorates????

In Christ,
Neal
 

mioque

New Member
Ray
You seem to be mostly concerned about misinterpreting the book of Revelations. :confused:
That is not a clear&simple text, the urge to allegorize is strong with that one.
Allthough chapter 20 seems to be reasonably straightforward, compared to some other bits.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Ray to Mioque -- Again, you cannot allegorize the Book of Revelation and come up with God's Divine truth. Studying the historical background, the context, and the word pictures, and even perhaps other evangelical and conservative commentators, one will come more than close to the real truth.

When God says 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, there are no two, three, four or five layers of truth. Truth is guess what? Revelation 20 for example is the one layer of truth, meaning a Millennial Kingdom for our beloved Christ that will be on this cosmos.
Excellent point Ray.

God is "really God" in the book of revelation.

The saints are "really the saints" in the book of revelation.

The "earth" is figurative in parts of Rev 13 and literal in other parts - but literal in almost all other places - which means that washing out that reference as "symbolic in every case" is simply hollow theology.

Our RC bretheren "had hoped" to cast the entire book as "up for grabs - subject to whatever Pope you choose to interpret it for you". But in fact - Exegesis is AGAIN the secret to getting sound docrtine from the book. (That most feared principle to our RC bretheren).

I ask them again - wouldn't you rather step out of the dark ages and "into the light"? Who knows - maybe adopting sound exegeticall practices would actually benefit your case. Try it! At least "attempt" it.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Rev 19-20 ---

The Earth is really the earth.

God is really God.

The saints are really the saints.

The resurrection is really the resurrection.

The 1000 years are really 1000 years.

The 2nd death is really the 2nd death.

The lake of fire and brimstone is really the lake of fire and brimstone.

The throne of God is really the throne of God.

The birds are really the Birds.

The armies of mankind are really the armies of mankind.

Why would our RC bretheren want to insist that none of it is actually true - and that you can simply spin it to mean whatever your favorite papal source tells you to say? Like is like you are adrift without an anchor of objective exegetical Bible study methods.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Dr. William P. Grady studied at Calvary Bible Institute and Philadelphia College of Bible {the latter Bible school was and remains the leading dispensational college in the USA. It goes by a different name now and has moved out of the inner city of Philadelphia}. He enrolled in Hyles-Anderson College, earning a B.S. in Pastoral Theology and a M. Ed. in Christian education. He received a D.D. from Anchor Baptist Bible College inPisgah Forest, North Carolina, and holds a Th.M. in English Bible from Baptist International School of Theology and a Ph.D. in history from Baptist International Seminary. He does prefer the King James Version over the patch-work of manuscripts that the Catholic Church put together and then changing several key words from Greek into the Latin, such as the word, 'elder' into the word priest. I know the KJV has one mistake that I have found and that being I John 3:9. The correct word is 'practice' from the Greek rather than the word, commit. I have read and had a course from his book, "Final Authority," and I found it to be rather enlightening. I am sure there are also other good texts to study from in connection with our focus on Scripture rather than the passing documentation of Roman Catholic traditions.
 

neal4christ

New Member
I am sorry, Ray, but I would not trust anything by Dr. Grady nor would I ever use him to support my position. He does not merely "prefer" the KJV. It is folks like him that make me just shake my head in disbelief that people actually believe the stuff he peddles.

In Christ,
Neal
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
If for some reason people don't enter Heaven they will not be able to say at the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11] the traditions of my church, the Magisterium, or the Pope told me this was correct.

The only standard that Christ will judge us by are His words that He has spoken to us through His sacred Word, the Bible. The Living Word above Jesus Christ has closed the canon and we have His written words to measure up to in this life time. Human traditions will not be criterion by which we are judged by Almighty God. These add-on theological ideas are of no value and won't even have to be burned in Hell; but people may burn there if their only salvation rests in the ingenius, nuances other than that Christ died for their sins. [I Corinthians 15:3 & I John 2:2]

Only those who receive 'Him/Christ' will He 'give the authority to become the sons and daughters of God;' these are those who 'believe on His Name.' {John 1:12} And John 14:6 declares that Christ is our only Mediator [I Timothy 2:5] by which we can reach God in Heaven. And Jesus said to the people, 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father, but by Me.'

Romans 5:1 indicates that we will be saved because of our faith in Jesus. Justification is by faith and trusting only in what Christ did for us on the Cross. All else will become shifting sand and Jesus has been elevated and has appeared as the one Foundation or Rock for our faith. [I Corinthians 3:11; Matthew 16:18; Psalm 92:15; Psalm 61:2; Psalm 78:35; Psalm 94:22; Psalm 95:1]

All Christian concur with God through the Apostle Paul, Matthew and the King and Prophet David that Christ is our Rock and our sure defence. Jesus is the Rock of Ages.
 

mioque

New Member
Time to ask a stupid question.
Isn't Calvary Bible Institute a roman catholic institution?
Never heard of the place before, but where I come from only RC's use Calvary, everybody else says Golgotha.
On the other hand where I come from only RC's use the term missionary (missionaris). My side uses the word zendeling to cover the same concept. On the other hand American baptists happily call their zendelingen missionaries, so the last time some of my fellow baptists got murdered by some Islamic fundies, my mom thought they had murdered nuns.
 
D

dianetavegia

Guest
Isn't Calvary Bible Institute a roman catholic institution?
Never heard of the place before, but where I come from only RC's use Calvary, everybody else says Golgotha
Calvary is used commonly here in the south by Baptists. In fact, we have a number of hymns about Calvary!

MANY Baptist Churches are named Calvary Baptist!
Diane
 
D

dumbox1

Guest
Mioque,

Oddly enough, it seems to be the reverse in my neck of the woods. Around here, I usually hear "Golgotha" from Catholics and "Calvary" from Protestants.

I wonder why that's so?

Mark
 
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