The route to Calvinism

[Rippon]

L-J's sermons on Romans in 79 through the early 80's had a good deal of influence on my embrace of Calvinism . ( BTW , I disagree with his take on some of Romans 7 ) . He introduced me to many historical figures who were Calvinists ( many before Calvin was born ) . So I started reading those fellows as well . Reading any of Calvin's works came much later ( which seems to be the case here with many who hold to the doctrine of grace ) . In the process of all of this I went through Scripture with a fine toothcomb and came to settled Calvinistic convictions by 86 or so . Yet it wasn't until a decade later that I first joined a Reformed Baptist Church . I stayed much too long with the Evangelical Free Church . Each EF church is not a carbon copy of the others . There may be some excellent ones out there . But I kept bringing up a lot of disagreements I had with some of the teachings and practices of the Church with the Pastor . Many of the teachings had nothing to do with Calvinism as such . Most Fundamentalist would have been in agreement with me "So why have you remained here ? " was basically the reply I received . The major thing was being required to teach some things ( and use some things ) in the Sunday School class I was teaching .

I really got off-track there . It has been a pilgrimage . I still learn from folks on the other side of the isle . I even got Dave Hunt's Newsletter up thru 1990 . He is a Plymouth Brethren as I was in my "formative years " as they say . J.N.Darby was a strong Calvinist -- A.W. Pink even quotes him positively in his "Sovereignty of God" classic .

Some ( just some ) writers/theologians/preachers that I have found helpful through the years have been : Charles H. Spurgeon , L-J , AW Pink , James Boice , JI Packer , Robert Reymond , Joseph Irons , Herman Hoeksema , Walter Chantry , John Calvin , the Apostle Paul and John the beloved one .

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes it does, Pinoy.

We should remember brotherly love towards those we disagree with, while humbly handling the Word of Truth. That sword is powerful, ever against its own wielder when inproperly used.

I remember something my Seminary Prof. said.
You can win an arguement and loose your brother. It is not enough to win one or the other but we must win them both because that is the true test of the Spirit lead indiviadual.

I think what happens is both sides want to win the argument.
I know that to be true of me, at least.
Until a short time ago when I realized what theology really is.
As some Viet vets say: it don' mean nuthin'.

So now I argue to sharpen my iron, and the more I look at the counterarguments presented by others here the more I realize that the Doctrine of Grace as I understood it among Primitive Baptists speak more highly of God and represents His grace in all its magnificence and magnanimity more than any other.

I've never read any of Calvin's writings, or Paul Bunyan's, or Martin Luther's, have read some of Pink's, but only cursory, and have not even began to read any of the Primitive Baptists' writing. I've read some of Mc'Arthur's and Sproul's and don't agree with many of what they say.

I read only the Bible with the mindset that God is Sovereign and Eternal, Infinite and Merciful but Just and Holy, and that's it.

I started on the Doctrine of Grace, like I said, because of vituperous remarks by my own Bible College president against the Doctrine of Election, and then going against what he just said by saying that those who come down the aisle to "accept" Christ are already saved because their deciding to come to Christ simply means they already have a regenerate spirit. I mean, talk about double talk.

And then the next day in class, he again expounded on how evil the Doctrine of Election makes God appear, and how John Mc'Arthur doesn't believe in the efficacy of the blood of Christ.

The problem is that that same night, I heard John Mc'Arthur preach on the Blood of Christ, and the next night I heard him preach on Romans 8:29-30 and I've never felt that moved about the grace and mercy of God from any Arminian preaching.

So, I was on my way...and here I am.

 

[donnA]

And from my experience it is the other way around in great measure.

I haven't told anyone they weren't christian because they were armenian, but I've been told that b y armenians. Like wise, I haven't called anyone names, but I've been called names meant as slurs by armenians.

 

[Allan]

I haven't told anyone they weren't christian because they were armenian, but I've been told that b y armenians. Like wise, I haven't called anyone names, but I've been called names meant as slurs by armenians.

I didn't say YOU were the one. You were speaking to your experience of being called names, statements of not being truly saved... I was stating that I to from experience have recieved this type of treatment in great measure from those who profess the Doctrines of Grace. Most specifically that I am unsaved, preach another gospel, follower of doctrines of demons (literally because God Himself is a Calvinist) , and worshipper of man who does not even believe in God, ext... (even on this very BB)

That is why I am very careful NOT to throw those notions around when someone does not hold to my view of theology.

It is an inaccurate statement to place name calling squarely on the shoulders of one group when both groups are laden with it. I can remember even going to a Reformed Church in Tenn. where the pastor preaching that morning stated "if you believe in free-will and think you are saved, it is a sure bet you are of those who are predestined to condemnation." It was really the only time I went to a Reformed Baptist Church. I feel sad for someone like that and those under such disgraceful teaching of Grace.

But in line with the Op, I did look deeply into Calinistic teaching but that was not the Road or Route God desired of me and lead me from it just as lead some of you to it.

 

[~JM~]

The root to Calvinism is Romans 9.

:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

The root to Calvinism is Romans 9.

:thumbs:

I would say that it is more of a root to the problem of what's wrong with Israel.

 

[johnp.]

I would say that it is more of a root to the problem of what's wrong with Israel.

Are Israel different from other peoples webdog?

john.

 

[skypair]

I am curious...

How many of you here grew up in a non-Cist background and became 'Calvinist' before you even knew what "Calvinism" was?

That was my experience. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church (father was a pastor) and knew Scripture but had never studied it for myself. At 22 I first read straight through Scripture.

... I figured I had better go and find out what this Calvinism thing was. It was very exciting for me to discover that what I saw in Scripture had been seen by numerous godly men before me.

Anyways, I am curious as to how many Baptists here had a similar experience.

Well, my experience was remarkably opposite! I went to (in order) Presby, Methodist, Congregational, false Presby (get to that in a minute ) and never knew where what I was learning was coming from -- mostly, as I often expect now, religious platitudes with no life to them.

"False Presby?" Yeah, Bible Presbyterian -- Pastor Noe (neat name, neat old man) :laugh: Bible wasn't just part of the name -- Noe taught the Bible. You know, dw -- the old "INVITATION TO RECEIVE CHRIST" Bible. Remember that one? Oh, the one that had the OT in it. I actually got saved after a sermon on the OT (about the 5th or 6th time I heard the NT gospel, though)!

My impressions ever since are that those churches I had gone to were hiding the truth, not delivering it. Since I'm saved, I'll go there. They "sanctify" believers somewhat. I like their hymns better than the new wave of "big, seeker friendly Baptist" garbage. But Reform/Cal'ists don't know one lick about prophecy! And as to systematic theology -- I use it for toilet paper. It creates a congregation of folks who are very self-satisfied, kinda like Laodicea, IMO.

But there are some belivers there -- many who slipped by through Baptist conversion and then got "re-edjicated." :laugh: Kinda like Jesus "fold" that got led out to pasture for awhile (isn't that what they say about those who retire from their real labors -- "let out to pasture?").

Anyway, I love 'em all! That's why I keep trying to gather 'em back to Jesus (vs. to Calvin).

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Skypair , you hit a new low even for yourself with your last unedifying post .

So you'd "rather gather them back to Jesus than to John Calvin ". Your false dichotomies are a sight to behold . John Calvin was , and still is an instrument that has edified the Body of Christ down through the centuries . If the Lord tarries , long after we die his work will enrich more believers and be mighty helpful to non-believers as well . His works could be a tool to bring somone to the Lord .

You have reduced systematic theology to a base idea .( It's not worth repeating your coarse words .) Granted there have been some very bad systematic theologies written such as Charles Finney's and others -- but come on ! Would you really have no esteem for the systematic theologies of Reymond , Turretin , Hodge , Berkoff and many more ?! These men have attempted to review major Bible doctrines to help the average Christian . They were not written to replace the Bible , but to try to explain it , to illuminate the layman . And you have a problem with that ? If so , that is disgraceful .

 

[webdog]

Are Israel different from other peoples webdog?

john.

...ask God

 

[Andy T.]

As to the OP, my progression was somewhat gradual over a 3-5 year period. I was raised in a "holiness" background - i.e., Nazarene. My whole life growing up I equated holiness with how good I had to be to please God, etc. My biggest turning point was when I began to study Scripture I saw the holiness and glory of God as a priority theme rather than my filthy rags of "holiness". Once I began to grasp the glory and holiness of God compared to my unholiness, I began to understand the Doctrines of Grace.

I agree with what Pastor Larry said above - neither side can "prove" that the other side is wrong. Frankly, I see Scripture that supports both sides. But the question is, how do you reconcile those opposing passages? I think that has a lot to do with our presuppositions and what priority we give to certain core doctrines. This gets into the area of epistemology, which I think is black box of sorts.

Anyways, I can certainly sympathize with the other side and see how they might come to certain conclusions about depravity, election, atonement, grace and faith. But to be honest, I find very few on the other side of the argument who show that same understanding to the sovereign grace side. Maybe a lot of it is the nature of internet forums, and I know I've been guilty of not seasoning my words with grace, and for that I am sorry.

 

[johnp.]

...ask God

I don't need to as He has given me the truth already.
The root to Calvinism is Romans 9. (JM)
I would say that it is more of a root to the problem of what's wrong with Israel. (webdog)
Are Israel different from other peoples webdog? (Me)

Are they? I was asking for your assessment not God's webdog.

john.

 

[webdog]

I don't need to as He has given me the truth already.
The root to Calvinism is Romans 9. (JM)
I would say that it is more of a root to the problem of what's wrong with Israel. (webdog)
Are Israel different from other peoples webdog? (Me)

Are they? I was asking for your assessment not God's webdog.

john.

Does my assessmenet really matter? Only God's, matters. Ask Him

 

[skypair]

Skypair , you hit a new low even for yourself with your last unedifying post .

So you'd "rather gather them back to Jesus than to John Calvin ". Your false dichotomies are a sight to behold.

Just giving my testimony. Some here worship the ground Calvin left behind -- I just don't. It's kinda the same thing I would ask a Catholic -- in what way does Calvinism edify you more than the Bible does? How can some Calvinists say that "Calvinism IS the gospel?" I mean, that's just not right, is it? How can they say we are all born guilty of Adam's sin so that infant go to hell?? How can they mess scripture up so badly that God's 4 unconditional promises/covenant to Israel are to be broken by God?? How can they teach salvation when they don't even know why God choses the individuals He does unto salvation??

You have reduced systematic theology to a base idea.

I like the idea, just like you do. I just don't think it can be accomplished. it's especially not accomplished by Calvinism! TULIP has always been suspect. Changing common word meanings has always been a bad thing.

I'm sorry if you are offended. But would you have me ignore something I know to be leading others astray?

skypair

 

[donnA]

Just giving my testimony. Some here worship the ground Calvin left behind -- I just don't. It's kinda the same thing I would ask a Catholic -- in what way does Calvinism edify you more than the Bible does? How can some Calvinists say that "Calvinism IS the gospel?" I mean, that's just not right, is it? How can they say we are all born guilty of Adam's sin so that infant go to hell?? How can they mess scripture up so badly that God's 4 unconditional promises/covenant to Israel are to be broken by God?? How can they teach salvation when they don't even know why God choses the individuals He does unto salvation??

I like the idea, just like you do. I just don't think it can be accomplished. it's especially not accomplished by Calvinism! TULIP has always been suspect. Changing common word meanings has always been a bad thing.

I'm sorry if you are offended. But would you have me ignore something I know to be leading others astray?

skypair

1. I for one do not worship calvin or his dirt. I worship God and believe His word. I do not change the meaning of elect.
2. The bible specifies that Adam's sin is passed on to each man(humans, not just men).
3. God tells us why He chooses who He choose, based soley on Him, and not us.
I have never done anything to make worthy of Him choosing me, neither has anyone else.

 

[Helen]

The 'road to Calvinism' has to detour around a good number of Scriptures. Here is another one, which turned up on our calendar for today:

"Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."
Jeremiah 26:3

 

[dwmoeller1]

"Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."
Jeremiah 26:3

You don't understand Cism if you think that verse at all conflicts with it. A Cist would fully affirm this.

 

[donnA]

elect
–verb (used with object)
1. to choose or select by vote, as for an office: to elect a mayor.
2. to determine in favor of (a method, course of action, etc.).
3. to pick out; choose: First-year students may elect French, Spanish, or German.
4. Theology. (of God) to select for divine mercy or favor, esp. for salvation.
–verb (used without object)
5. to choose or select someone or something, as by voting.
–adjective
6. selected, as for an office, but not yet inducted (usually used in combination following a noun): the governor-elect.
7. select or choice: an elect circle of artists.
8. Theology. chosen by God, esp. for eternal life.
–noun the elect,
9. a person or the persons chosen or worthy to be chosen.
10. Theology. a person or persons chosen by God, esp. for favor or salvation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elect

elect Strong's Number: 1588
picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ 1a
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
King James Word Usage - Total: 23
elect 16, chosen 7

election Strong's Number: 1589
the act of picking out, choosing
of the act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons
the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone
a thing or person chosen
of persons: God's elect
King James Word Usage - Total: 7
election 6, chosen 1
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?search=elect&version=kjv&type=eng



Easton's Bible Dictionary
Election of Grace
The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deuteronomy 7:6; Romans 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2; John 13:18).
The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Ephesians 1:5,11; Matthew 11:25,26; John 15:16,19). God claims the right so to do (Romans 9:16,21).
It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of soverign grace (Romans 11:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Ephesians 2:8; 2th 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2Tim 2:25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:5,10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature."
Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love" (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Galatians 4:4,5; Ephesians 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace (Ephesians 1:6,12). (See PREDESTINATION .)
http://www.biblestudytools.net/Dictionaries/EastonsBibleDictionary/ebd.cgi?number=T1149

 

[donnA]

"Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings."
Jeremiah 26:3

this in no way disproves calvinism, this is not about choosing salvation, it is about choosing to live a godly life, instead of a life filled with sin.
who was this written to? jeremiah wrote to the people of Judah. people already called God's chosen. To God's people. God's people are capable of sin in any generation, these people certainly, they continued to chose evil living over godly living. Once saved we chose to sin or not, before salvation we are slaves and dead, unable to chose.

edited to correct spelling

 

[Helen]

this in no way disproves calvinism, this is not about choosing salvation, it is about choosing to live a godly life, instead of a life filled with sin.
who was this written to? jeremiah wrote to the people of Judah. people already called God's chosen. To God's people. God's people are capable of sin in any generation, these people certainly, they continued to chose evil living over godly living. Once saved we chose to sin or not, before salvation we are slaves and dead, unable to chose.

edited to correct spelling

Yes, they were chosen as God's people, His inheritance, actually. And they refused Christ.

So much for the effectual calling.