The route to Calvinism

[pinoybaptist]

About systematizing doctrines, I guess Paul was wrong, eh ? He tried to systematize why children of God believe to the Romans.
Well, if we really ever get to heaven, I guess we can look him up and say that to his face, right ?

 

[webdog]

These two doctrines actually dovetail nicely, but they are not necessarily revealed to a believer simultaneously.

And if they are not revealed to a believer at all?...

 

[amity]

And if they are not revealed to a believer at all?...

That'll be fine. We do not have to have sytematic theology.

 

[webdog]

I think webdog is barking down the wrong hole.
There is no reason to conclude that Calvinism cannot be true or trustworthy because people find its teaching in sermons or articles written by God's people which then leads them to study their Bibles with a new perspective on truth.

Like the pun
That was not my point that because it's found in teachings and articles it is less trustworthy. It's when Scripture is read through this lens it becomes a problem.
Have you ever considered the non cal position to be true, too, for the same reason you mention?

As for why many Christians today are not saved with the understanding of Calvinism, that's a fairly obvious answer. Most churches have abandoned the doctrines of grace that once enjoyed popularity in many churches in North America, Europe and the UK and instead proclaim a synergistic message which is contrary to the Bible.

That wasn't the "obvious answer" I expected. Since the Holy Spirit is the one who draws us to Christ (The Truth, btw), why doesn't He do so to the WHOLE truth, as you say, from the beginning? Does He not have power over the "obvious answer" you have put forth?

Calvinism is not harder or tougher to understand from an intellectual standpoint; it's simply goes against that which man likes to believe about himself and God.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Webdog,

I agree with much of your testimony. "At first blush," Calvinism looks very reasonable, especially Total Depravity. Concepts like "total soveriengty" jibe with everything in the Bible except man's individual moral freedom. In that, just examining my conscience told me that I could recognize God's right and wrong whether I knew it was God's or just sensed it.

Can you point me to a passage that teaches that God's sovereignty excludes man's choices?
Is this one?
Proverbs 16:9
In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Maybe this one?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but is it the LORD's purposes that prevails.

This one?
Daniel 4: 35
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand or say to him:
"What have you done?"

Or this?
Lamentations 3: 37
Who can speak and have it happen if the LORD has not decreed it?

Or is it here?
Acts 17: 26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

As a Calvinist, I find my Bible makes more sense when I give God the glory He alone deserves as the Sovereign Lord over His creation.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

oops, double post.

 

[webdog]

Guys, what you are saying is really pretty strange. Did you come to trust Christ through reading Arminius? or anyone else? Obviously no one ever came to trust Christ through reading Calvin, either!

That's a strawman. Scripture is truth. Neither arminius nor calvin are, and I don't see the argument here that either side is claiming that.

Meanwhile, I am plain worn out reading denunciations of Calvinism (and Arminianism) from people who obviously have very little idea what either teaches.

There are so many "flavors" of each, nobody can know for certain everyone's stance on either. It doesn't mean that they are uneducated on the matter, though.

 

[webdog]

Can you point me to a passage that teaches that God's sovereignty excludes man's choices?
Is it this one?
Proverbs 16:9
In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

This one?
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but is it the LORD's purposes that prevails.

This one?
Daniel 4: 35
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand or say to him:
"What have you done?"

Or this?
Lamentations 3: 37
Who can speak and have it happen if the LORD has not decreed it?

Or this last one?
Acts 17: 26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

As a Calvinist, I find my Bible makes more sense when I give God the glory He alone deserves as the Sovereign Lord over His creation.

Welcome to the BB, btw :wavey:

Many of what you have put forth has been debated countless times here. It would do well to do a search in the old calvinism / arminianism forum from a couple years back.

 

[amity]

Calvinism is not harder or tougher to understand from an intellectual standpoint; it's simply goes against that which man likes to believe about himself and God.

That is very true. But only recently. Until perhaps the 1700s, people in the west were much more likely to adhere to a teaching that emphasized God's sovereignty. Since the rise of capitalism, individual autonomy, democracy, the self-made man, control of one's own destiny, individualism, I-am-the-captain-of-my-soul, Horatio Algerism ... free-will-ism or open theology has come to seem more plausible to people because it accords with our basic world view in other areas. So most modern people tend to read the Bible through the lens of what they already believe to be true of life in general. It just does not make sense to most people that God Himself is not a capitalist, a democrat, etc.

But God's ways are above our ways.

 

[donnA]

That is very true. But only recently. Until perhaps the 1700s, people in the west were much more likely to adhere to a teaching that emphasized God's sovereignty. Since the rise of capitalism, democracy, the self-made man, control of one's own destiny, I-am-the-captain-of-my-soul, Horatio Algerism, free-will-ism or open theology has come to seem more plausible to people because it accords with our basic world view in other areas. So most modern people tend to read the Bible through the lens of what they already believe to be true of life in general. It just does not make sense to most people that God Himself is not a capitalist, a democrat, etc.

But God's ways are above our ways.

I have heard pretty much the same thing. We base our beleif in freedom on the fact we have so many frredoms in this country, more freedoms then most other countries in the world. In outher countries with a lot less religeous freedoms, fewer people believe in free will. In this country we taught we are born with rights, rights to make choices, to be what we want. We carry our culture over into our scripture too many times.

 

[donnA]

DonnA, I'm getting the sense that you believe that Calvinists are "chosen people" just like Israel were "chosen people." Is that true?


Again, the definition of "elect" that you use is flawed despite your dictionary offerings.

skypair

no, not calvinists, christians.

I used christian sources for the defination of elect.

 

[donnA]

The route to Calvinism

This is the name of this thread and the intent of the op. Not to debate calvinism, but tell how YOU becasme a calvinist. If your posting on this thread, about how YOU becasme a calvinist, we can only assume your a calvinist, so, tell us how YOU became a calvinist. Otherwise, your off topic. Can we not consentrate on one thing, or must our minds constantly wander.

 

[amity]

no, not calvinists, christians.

I used christian sources for the defination of elect.

Well, there are some tares growing among the wheat! And some wheat growing among the tares, too. I would not say God's elect was synonymous with "Christians."

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Like the pun
That was not my point that because it's found in teachings and articles it is less trustworthy. It's when Scripture is read through this lens it becomes a problem.

You have a lens too. We all do. So we all wear glasses when reading the Bible.

Have you ever considered the non cal position to be true, too, for the same reason you mention?

I grew up as a non-calvinist. Does that answer your question?

That wasn't the "obvious answer" I expected. Since the Holy Spirit is the one who draws us to Christ (The Truth, btw), why doesn't He do so to the WHOLE truth, as you say, from the beginning? Does He not have power over the "obvious answer" you have put forth?

Let's see. No one completely sees the "whole truth", do they? We are all lacking in our understanding in one form or another.
Why do we need to "get it all" from day one of our Christian life?
The apostle Paul prayed for the Colossians that they would be filled with the knowledge of His will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding(Col. 1: 9).
Did he mean for God's Spirit to accomplish this in one sermon or study?
I doubt it.
So as we study, we grow in our understanding.
As we pray with humility we change our beliefs to reflect our current understandings.
As we spread the gospel, we gain wisdom into God's will.
God's will is obviously that not all Christians believe and understand the Bible the same way. These theological differences serve His purposes for as long as He sees fit to ordain them.
I think there are several instances in the NT that show that God's will is that we make mistakes or have gaps in our theology.
Peter needed to be corrected.
Apollos needed more teaching from Aquilla and Priscilla.
Perhaps even Simon the Sorceror was genuine in his search after being rebuked by Peter.


I also want to say that our sinful natures and immature spirits can also prevent us from reaching a true understanding of passages.
Please note that I am not saying that Calvinists are less sinful or more mature than other believers, but sin affects all areas, including our ability to be teachable.

 

[donnA]

Well, there are some tares growing among the wheat! And some wheat growing among the tares, too. I would not say God's elect was synonymous with "Christians."

So are the elect not christians, or are christian not elect? No matter your defination of elect, God's people, christians, are elect.

 

[amity]

So are the elect not christians, or are christian not elect? No matter your defination of elect, God's people, christians, are elect.

No, not all Christians are elect. And some are elect who are not Christians.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

-Matthew 7 21-23​

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

-Matthew 25 32-46​

 

[Sober_Baptist]

I'm a new guy, so I'm getting in late in this thread, but by reading the Bible and using plain interpretations wherever possible, and realising that all scriptures fit together like puzzle pieces sometimes (all are valid, from the Lord), I found it easy to believe in the Predestinarian way.

 

[John of Japan]

Whether you like it or not, we all have to reconcile certain passages with others, i.e., "let Scripture interpret Scripture."

One example are the few verses where it says "Repent and be baptized." A Campbellite uses these verses to support his false doctrine of baptismal regeneration, while we would argue that other Scriptures teaching faith alone shed light on those verses. We don't just throw up our hands and say, "It's all a mystery!" Granted, there are some aspects of God and his ways that are mysterious to us (glass darkly), and I suspect each of us draws that line at different places than others.

Nope, sorry, I do not have to reconcile certain passages with others. I can walk with God, seek the power of the Holy Spirit and to be used by God, do my best to be a blessing to those around me, grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord and do all else that I need to do as a Christian completely without completely understanding the sovereignity of God.

Your comparison of the CvA argument with the arguments about baptismal regeneration are spurious. Both sides should end up doing evangelism in the same way, while the Campellite view of salvation is a heresy that sends people to Hell.

Those who believe we have to understand the sovereignity of God or we can't be good Christians end up arguing endlessly about the subject as an intellectual exercise. That is not profitable to believers, IMO. :type:

 

[Pastor Larry]

no, not calvinists, christians.

I wasn't aware there was a difference. All the Calvinists I have read or heard have given testimony of being Christian.

Don't you think this is kind of a ridiculous statement you made?

 

[amity]

I wasn't aware there was a difference. All the Calvinists I have read or heard have given testimony of being Christian.

Don't you think this is kind of a ridiculous statement you made?

In fairness to Donna, it seems that she meant that not only Calvinists, but ALL Christians are the elect.

I still disagree with that.