The route to Calvinism

[Isaiah40:28]

How would you say that the doctrine of election is a "comfort?" On account of "Perserverance of the saints?" I don't even get how "election" is a comfort to anyone except those who are ministers -- whose jobs depend on their "perserverance"/works. Maybe you could enlighten me.

If you look carefully throughout the NT where election is discussed you will find that the writer never hesitates to give God praise and thanksgiving for His electing love(grace).
Eph. 1 and 2 Thess. 2:13 are two excellent examples.
If you don't see election as a reason to give thanks then you do not see election as what it truly is taught in the Bible.
I for one, am thankful that my salvation did not depend on me. I can affirm what the apostle John wrote in John 1:13, that God gave me the right to be His child, not because of anything I decided but because it was His will that I be born of Him, adopted into His family.
My delcaration of faith, my profession, is the way I show that I have been born of God.

As far as John of Japan declaring he would never talk about election to an unsaved person nor a new Christian, what are you thinking?

If it's in the Bible it is to be declared to men. We need not be ashamed of what the Bible teaches nor hold doctrines in secret. It's apparant that Jesus, Paul or Peter did not refrain from teaching these things and writing to the church about them.
I would caution to reconsider your view.

 

[John of Japan]

As far as John of Japan declaring he would never talk about election to an unsaved person nor a new Christian, what are you thinking?

If it's in the Bible it is to be declared to men. We need not be ashamed of what the Bible teaches nor hold doctrines in secret. It's apparant that Jesus, Paul or Peter did not refrain from teaching these things and writing to the church about them.
I would caution to reconsider your view.

Oh, come now, you wouldn't teach just anything to a lost person would you? Would you start them right out on the Song of Solomon, hoping to see them saved through that? The The Bible says teaches they are incabable of understanding spiritual things. How about a good lesson on the OT law about leprosy in the walls of the house for a new believer--that would sure help, wouldn't it? And the Bible clearly distinguishes between the milk new believers can handle and the meat that mature believers can handle. Or didn't you read the verses I mentioned?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Oh, come now, you wouldn't teach just anything to a lost person would you? Would you start them right out on the Song of Solomon, hoping to see them saved through that? The The Bible says teaches they are incabable of understanding spiritual things. How about a good lesson on the OT law about leprosy in the walls of the house for a new believer--that would sure help, wouldn't it? And the Bible clearly distinguishes between the milk new believers can handle and the meat that mature believers can handle. Or didn't you read the verses I mentioned?

Wow. You have a good point there.

 

[amity]

Oh, come now, you wouldn't teach just anything to a lost person would you? Would you start them right out on the Song of Solomon, hoping to see them saved through that? The The Bible says teaches they are incabable of understanding spiritual things. How about a good lesson on the OT law about leprosy in the walls of the house for a new believer--that would sure help, wouldn't it? And the Bible clearly distinguishes between the milk new believers can handle and the meat that mature believers can handle. Or didn't you read the verses I mentioned?

On the other hand, sometime before they join your church, they need to know if you are predestinarian.

 

[Andy T.]

Oh, come now, you wouldn't teach just anything to a lost person would you? Would you start them right out on the Song of Solomon, hoping to see them saved through that? The The Bible says teaches they are incabable of understanding spiritual things. How about a good lesson on the OT law about leprosy in the walls of the house for a new believer--that would sure help, wouldn't it? And the Bible clearly distinguishes between the milk new believers can handle and the meat that mature believers can handle. Or didn't you read the verses I mentioned?

As a "Calvinist," I tend to agree with John here. I sense that many of the Calvies I find on Internet forums are too eager to put predestination/election at the forefront of their entire experience, and then expect others to do the same. IOW, it is the doctrine of predestination that drives everything else. I don't know, maybe that's the way it should be, but there are other doctrines in the Bible, too. I think if I had to pick one overriding theme to focus on, it would be the glory of God, which in turn encompasses the whole counsel of God. But it is true, there are some doctrines that are by nature meatier and tougher to handle. And the pattern we see of Jesus and the Apostles when reaching the lost is not giving them a dissertation on Unconditional Election, rather, the message is "repent and believe."

That being said, we should never shy away from the tough doctrines if they are questioned or they come up in the context of our discussions. And handling these situations takes wisdom, love, gentleness and respect.

 

[Andy T.]

On the other hand, sometime before they join your church, they need to know if you are predestinarian.

Why? If a person is a new Christian, they may not even have a firm grasp of what predestination means or of any competing theories on the matter. There are other doctrines in the Bible than just predestination.

 

[skypair]

On the other hand, sometime before they join your church, they need to know if you are predestinarian.

Yup, it might be a real shock to join and then find out such hijinx are going on! :laugh:

Eph 4:20 -- "But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:..." -- not in predestinarianism.

Isaiah40:28 -- Election IS a comfort though election is NOT salvation. Salvation comes, as any good Calvinist would know, through "calling." I believe you call it "effectual calling."

After you are "called," it is then that Peter says "give diligence to make your calling and election sure." 2Pet 1:10 Does that begin to make sense to you now? You are saved/"called" to a purpose/"election."

My delcaration of faith, my profession, is the way I show that I have been born of God.

What is your "declaration of faith?" Is it the "Apostle's Creed?" But you then say "profession." Could I hear it?

Don't be embarrassed -- I'll give mine first in case you'd just rather pick mine apart. At 16, I begged God to reveal Himself. I was so sure there was a God but also sure that I hadn't heard anything from Him but Methodist, Presby, and Congregational "be good" pap!

It was then that my mom changed churches to one less politically active. There I began to hear the Bible preached like it is supposed to be -- as God speaking to us personally! After about 4-5 weeks of considering what I heard, the pastor gave a sermon on 2Kings 7 about the 4 lepers sitting outside the gate. Famine had struck and the city was under seige. If the lepers went in, they would be slain as unclean. If they went out to the armies, they would be slain as enemies. But if they sat there, they reasoned, their death was even more certain.

That is where each of us is. We have to choose which way we will go. And sitting where we are is certain spiritual death.

Get this - - the lepers decided not to trust there own people (who had strayed from God and Bible and were receiving their just desserts) but to lay themselves at the mercy of the coming king. And so, yes, I did the same! raying: And now, having eaten my fill, I come back from the enemy camp and tell you, you MUST choose. God is NOT going to "absorb" you into His kingdom --- He is going to lead you in IF you will hear Him and get off your dead deriere, repent, and receive!

Your turn, if you will.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Oh, come now, you wouldn't teach just anything to a lost person would you? Would you start them right out on the Song of Solomon, hoping to see them saved through that? The The Bible says teaches they are incabable of understanding spiritual things. How about a good lesson on the OT law about leprosy in the walls of the house for a new believer--that would sure help, wouldn't it? And the Bible clearly distinguishes between the milk new believers can handle and the meat that mature believers can handle. Or didn't you read the verses I mentioned?

I thought it was obvious that we were discussing teaching election. That's at least what I was contending in my post. You said that you would never dicusss election with a unsaved or newly saved person. That's what I meant when I said we shouldn't be afraid to declare the whole counsel of God to anyone.
Of course discernment is to be exercised, but not at the expense of God's word. Meaning, by writing off certain doctrines as inappropriate for one or more audiences, you have unnecessarily limited the work of God's Spirit.
In your missionary experience, haven't you ever heard incredible stories of what passages God used to convict someone or strenthen someone?
I'm not a missionary, but I can think of several stories of where God's Spirit went ahead and prepared someone's heart for certain passages or understandings that many Christians would never have thought to share.
I'm just cautioning you in your blanket assesment that the doctrine of election is not suitable for some categories of people.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Yup, it might be a real shock to join and then find out such hijinx are going on! :laugh:

Eph 4:20 -- "But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:..." -- not in predestinarianism.

Isaiah40:28 -- Election IS a comfort though election is NOT salvation. Salvation comes, as any good Calvinist would know, through "calling." I believe you call it "effectual calling."

After you are "called," it is then that Peter says "give diligence to make your calling and election sure." 2Pet 1:10 Does that begin to make sense to you now? You are saved/"called" to a purpose/"election."

What is your "declaration of faith?" Is it the "Apostle's Creed?" But you then say "profession." Could I hear it?

Don't be embarrassed -- I'll give mine first in case you'd just rather pick mine apart. At 16, I begged God to reveal Himself. I was so sure there was a God but also sure that I hadn't heard anything from Him but Methodist, Presby, and Congregational "be good" pap!

It was then that my mom changed churches to one less politically active. There I began to hear the Bible preached like it is supposed to be -- as God speaking to us personally! After about 4-5 weeks of considering what I heard, the pastor gave a sermon on 2Kings 7 about the 4 lepers sitting outside the gate. Famine had struck and the city was under seige. If the lepers went in, they would be slain as unclean. If they went out to the armies, they would be slain as enemies. But if they sat there, they reasoned, their death was even more certain.

That is where each of us is. We have to choose which way we will go. And sitting where we are is certain spiritual death.

Get this - - the lepers decided not to trust there own people (who had strayed from God and Bible and were receiving their just desserts) but to lay themselves at the mercy of the coming king. And so, yes, I did the same! raying: And now, having eaten my fill, I come back from the enemy camp and tell you, you MUST choose. God is NOT going to "absorb" you into His kingdom --- He is going to lead you in IF you will hear Him and get off your dead deriere, repent, and receive!

Your turn, if you will.

skypair

I'm not really sure what your post was intended to prove or disprove.
I called your attention to passages in the NT where election(aka salvation for God's people) is written with praise and thankfulness.
You didn't address why Paul could write about it in such a manner, while you refer to it as a "false comfort".
On another note, why don't you wander over to the other thread, What on earth? and exegete Proverbs 16:9 as I requested.
And lastly, what was the above tirade about?
Why are speaking to me like that?
What was the point?
My profession is simply this:
As a young child, I was taught by my parents and teachers about sin and about God's forgiveness. I eventually sought out my mother to ask her to pray with me as I asked God to take my sin away and give me eternal life with Him.
I believe that my declaration of faith in God's Son was in response to the work of His Spirit opening my eyes and heart to see my sin and my need for forgiveness.

Are you going to complain that I give credit to God for giving me a heart to follow after Him? That my faith was a result of His working in me to will and to do that which He purposed?
I give God credit for bringing me to a saving knowledge of Himself by calling me, justifying me and ultimately glorifying me.
My faith is important, it is the vehicle by which God chose me to be saved, but I don't take any of the credit. He gave me the faith necesary to place my faith in Him.

 

[skypair]

My profession is simply this:
As a young child, I was taught by my parents and teachers about sin and about God's forgiveness. I eventually sought out my mother to ask her to pray with me as I asked God to take my sin away and give me eternal life with Him.
I believe that my declaration of faith in God's Son was in response to the work of His Spirit opening my eyes and heart to see my sin and my need for forgiveness.

That's plenty good with me, bro! I don't find that to have come from Calvinism or his tenets. You've been "reeducated."

But that's fine with me. God will no doubt continue the process He has begun in you until you are come to the Truth, Col 1. God hasten that day for all of us!

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

That's plenty good with me, bro! I don't find that to have come from Calvinism or his tenets. You've been "reeducated."
skypair

Yes, thankfully, I have moved on from the theology of my upbringing and so has my mother.