The Russian was right

[Thinkingstuff]

C'mon Tom. I am trying to show you that Christians should not fear death. Jesus said, "fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

What problem is death for a Christian? That it will send him to heaven? How is that a problem at all?

Note to fight does not mean to fear death. It means to value life.

 

[Tom Bryant]

No, you come on... who was talking about fearing death? Who is talking about that at all?

You've called me and millions of other men and women criminals. Well, we aren't. We just fought so you could say it.

 

[donnA]

someone hasn't paid attention to the bible obviously, God sent Israel out to war, and even told them to slaughter all of the enemy race, women and children included. I guess God made a mistake.

 

[just-want-peace]

An interesting point!

When I read the title of this thread, I immediately thought of Khrushchev (sp) making the comment re: the USA -

We will bury you!

Well, I was wrong about the topic; but then again maybe not!

 

[beefy]

Note to fight does not mean to fear death. It means to value life.

Jesus did not put the same value on your temporary life as you do.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate...even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

And why did He say this? To hate one's own life?

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33

Truly, if anyone seeks to save his life (by killing a terrorist who threatens his life), they will lose it. But those that will lose their lives, as did Jesus' disciples, will preserve their eternal life.

Why do some Christians seek to save their lives? Don't they know they will lose it?

You've called me and millions of other men and women criminals. Well, we aren't. We just fought so you could say it.

For the last time, I did not call you a criminal. I called your occupation criminal. It is criminal action to kill potential converts to Christianity.

And I would say this with or without the government's permission. I would say it with or without my "freedom of speech."

someone hasn't paid attention to the bible obviously, God sent Israel out to war, and even told them to slaughter all of the enemy race, women and children included. I guess God made a mistake.

Did you even read my post?

First off, God physically commanded people to fight wars in the Old Testament. He no longer commands people to fight wars. The words "Old Testament" literally means "Old Covenant." Look it up in the dictionary for proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."

Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.
What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant.

Under this Old Covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocities to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old

"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his people when he said,

“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. "Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version,it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away. "

The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete,including the "eye for an eye” doctrine..

“You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, that ye resist not evil.” Matthew 5:38-39

Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians.The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant. Jesus was not even born yet, therefore the Jews could not possibly be Christians.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.

Beefy, The problem with your Byzantine text or TR from which the KJB is translated from is it doesn't get the proper sence of what John the Baptist is talking about. The NIV properly gets the sense in modern english. Ie do not extort.

I did not refer to the King James Bible for the translation of the word violence. I turned to the original greek translation, which came long before your NIV.

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14 King James Version

The word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Notice that the entire system of war, and those participating, is about constantly putting others in fear. Terrifying people is something that war is perpetually in the business of doing. If nothing else is agitating to a people, war is most certainly agitating. If anything is gained by war, surely money, and that by intimidation and conquest. If anyone can kill a man in combat, then surely the combatants get shaken thorughly from time to time. If anything makes one tremble, it is war, and the drums and soldiers of war, that do so.

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."Matthew 7:12

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Unless you would desire men to bomb your home and blow your brians out with a shotgun, you should not do it unto them. You should love as you would have others love you. You should show should mercy as you would have others show mercy to you. You should forgive others as you would have them forgive you.

There have been men and women in the military who are clearly not following the golden rule. Instead, they are "doing unto others" (bombing, shooting, stabbing) simply because they do not want the Iraqis to do the same to them. They don't want to be bombed or killed, therefore they are killing and bombing Iraqis because they or the ones they are defending are afraid of being bombed or killed themselves.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- man's enemies will be the members of his own household." Matthew 10:34-35

That's right. Jesus brought the word of God, the "sword of the spirit", and that caused much division between households. It even caused nonchristian sons and daughters to put their Christian mothers and fathers to death!

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Ephesians 6:17

"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" Luke 12:49

That's right. Jesus came to bring the "fire of the Holy Spirit" on the earth, and it was kindled among His disciples...

"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:3-4

There were some who wished Jesus would bring physical fire down on the earth, but Jesus rebuked them. For he "came not to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:51-56

Obviously the fire He came to bring was not physical fire. He rebuked His disciples for suggesting such a thing.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

Indeed. And why did he say this? To hate one's own parents?

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37

Anyone who loves his father or mother so much that he would disobey Jesus' command to "love your enemy" is not worthy of Jesus. So, if they decide to kill their enemy out of love for their father or mother, they are disobeying Jesus' command.

By choosing to not love their enemies, thereby disobeying Jesus, they have demonstrated that they do not love Jesus more than their father or mother.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

Only those who really love Jesus will follow His commands like "love your enemy." And they certainly love Jesus more than their father or mother.

 

[beefy]

For we are Christians, disciples of Christ, and our weapons are not carnal...

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." 2 Corithians 10:3-6

We do not fight against flesh and blood:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Jesus did not put the same value on your temporary life as you do.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate...even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

And why did He say this? To hate one's own life?

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33

Truly, if anyone seeks to save his life (by killing a terrorist who threatens his life), they will lose it. But those that will lose their lives, as did Jesus' disciples, will preserve their eternal life.

Why do some Christians seek to save their lives? Don't they know they will lose it?

Yet Beefy Jesus practically begs the father to pass this cup from him. Why? Because he doesn't want life? No, God values life more than we do. He is known as the Living God for no one. Plus you're view of Luke 17:33 is also a misunderstanding. In the context of this verse he is speaking or materialism and being bound to it. God values life a lot more than I ever could. I don't know what your views on abortion are however most pacifist I've encountered are in favor of it contradicting their Pacificism. So is it just war you have an issue with?

Save their lives to loose a greater everlasting life is the point of the text which is more life than limited life.

The word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Exactly and in the context of the text he's specifically realating to point 5 the other views of the word only substantiate point 5.

Note as Christians we are not to seek war. So everyone agrees on this point. However, this does not exclude us from self defence. In Ecclesiasties it says there is a time for war and there is a time for peace. The necessity of a proper use of both. God doesn't suggest an extreem point of view with regard to the military. I remember being stationed at a GLCM Base back in the 80's. A lot of hippie types use to protest at the gate when I went to work since I was an SP. I remember standing at the gate as this one guy runs up and called me a baby killer. Since I never killed a baby in my life no was I old enough to have participated in the Vietnam War I laughed in his face because of his ignorance. Pacifism only works on people with conscience. Like the Ghandi; Indian revolution. The British had sensabilities. It could not have worked with Stalin.

 

[beefy]

I don't know what your views on abortion are however most pacifist I've encountered are in favor of it contradicting their Pacificism. So is it just war you have an issue with?

I know abortion is wrong. I also know that making laws forcing nonbelievers to adhere to Christian values is wrong. Jesus never forced anyone to follow His commands. He invited them. It is wrong for Americans to try and force "Christian laws" on people. If they want to have an abortion, then its their funeral. God says "vengeance is mine." God will take vengeance on their actions, not you or your laws prohibiting otherwise.

Exactly and in the context of the text he's specifically realating to point 5 the other views of the word only substantiate point 5.

You don't know that. You have no idea, and cannot prove which of these five possible translations he meant. You weren't there. And neither was I.

In Ecclesiasties it says there is a time for war and there is a time for peace.

That book was written by men under the Old Covenant. Just read what the Bible says about the Old Covenant being obsolete. I posted it twice already.

I remember standing at the gate as this one guy runs up and called me a baby killer.

I know a man in the military who has killed a child. That does not make him a "Baby-killer." He has left the military. It was too much.

Many people in the military have killed Iraqi children. If you read statistics, you will find that 40% of the entire Iraqi population are children, and the bombs do not always hit those it was intended for.

I am no hippie. The stereotypical hippie does drugs and is hateful towrad the military. I am not. I think the military is going about it the wrong way, and the Bible affirms this.

For we are Christians, disciples of Christ, and our weapons are not carnal...

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." 2 Corithians 10:3-6

We do not fight against flesh and blood:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I know abortion is wrong. I also know that making laws forcing nonbelievers to adhere to Christian values is wrong. Jesus never forced anyone to follow His commands. He invited them. It is wrong for Americans to try and force "Christian laws" on people. If they want to have an abortion, then its their funeral. God says "vengeance is mine." God will take vengeance on their actions, not you or your laws prohibiting otherwise.

I agree up to a point. Abortion is morally wrong. Society has a right to defend its citizens against being killed (Ie military, and police). Unborns are defensless and must be protected. Laws should not legalize killing apart from self defence. Abortion is not self defence but premeditated murder.

You don't know that. You have no idea, and cannot prove which of these five possible translations he meant. You weren't there. And neither was I.

You can know what a statement means in the context of the speach. Therefore no complaining about pay and no extortion would properly flow. No Killing people in general would have been an entirely new thought.

That book was written by men under the Old Covenant. Just read what the Bible says about the Old Covenant being obsolete. I posted it twice already.

Now don't be like Marcion! Note Jesus never said the OT or covenant was obsolete but completed or consumated in him. Big difference. God is still Holy and the law still requires satisfaction. It just so happens satisfaction is made in Jesus Christ. Doesn't mean God changed his mind. The OT is still valuable and Ecclesiasties is just as important today as it was when it was written.

We do not fight against flesh and blood:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

Yes its a spiritual battle. But if you know anything about Philosophy you would realize that the forms are weak representation of the substance (or spiritual world) Ie if there is a spiritual battle that must be faught with tools substantively in the Heavenlies it is reasonable to assume that the forms would be faught with tools that are of the forms or accidents.

 

[Jim1999]

It didn't appear wrong in the OT to kill every man, woman and child in certain communities............Thou shalt not do murder.............but murder they did.....there must be some other interpretation!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[beefy]

You still think the Old Testament (Old Covenant) Law requires satisfaction, and still applies?

I am unpersuaded that we are to follow the commands of the Old Covanant, and that we have the right to pick and choose which Old Covenant commands to follow. Just, pick the ones we like, ignore the ones we don't like. If you wish to follow Old Covenant Laws, you need to be consistent. You must follow these Laws as well.

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death" Leviticus 24:16

"And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:11

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." Deuteronomy 21 :18-20

If you have children, you must obey this Law. If they have acted stubbornly and rebellious before you must follow this law. If you were following Old Covenant Law, you should have put them to death years ago.

If nothing else, you should not fight in an army instituted by government because all governments are controlled by Satan.

Satan has been given the power to give all those that would worship him the kingdoms of this world, remember?

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine." Luke 4:5-7

The American government, just like all others, has lied to its citizens. The leaders of this world worship Satan. And Satan gave them the kingdoms of this world, just as he said he would. Satan is the prince of this world.

Just watch this video and count the number of times you hear the words "secondary explosion." I guarantee you that there was something else going on that day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-nT-luFIw&feature=PlayList&p=797AAA406EDE4E68&index=0&playnext=1

And read the news sources on CNN and FOX about Bohemian Grove. Read the names of the members in that fraternity. Almost every world leader is in that fraternity. Then look at what kind of pagan idol worship the world leaders are involved in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg5An6oOzdc&feature=fvste1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEOOiOSCNUA&NR=1

Note, I do not approve of calling our world leaders "theives" and other judgements, but I guarantee they are responsible for all that is happening in the world. Ultimately, the one responsible is Satan. He gave them their power in the first place. Even these men can be saved, and can repent of their sins against the world.

And the owl represents Lilith, who represents wisdom. The owl is not Moloch. Moloch is represented as a bull.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I am closing this thread because:

This is not a debate forum.

This is not edifying to the Body of Christ.

This is a slap in the face to every soldier who has ever fought in any war and the ones who are still engaged in battle.