The Sabbath- a much misunderstood Bible Text

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Bob, what those prophets said in the scriptures was considered "inspired" and is why they were recorded as scripture. That is why they are part of the Word of God today and it is why we declare them prophets. Because the Word itself says they were.

I want to go back to that point.

This test you point out above "they were already in scripture" could not have been "the test" used by the NT Christians in Corinth OR in any other NT church.

In fact that test could never have been used by the contemporary people of God (not in even Christ) at any time in history.

One could not go to the sermon on the mount - then look in your OT and if Christ's words were there - say "well yes - He is inspired because I see Him speaking here in scripture".

So the first point is that our knowing today that the unnumbered group of prophets mentioned in Corinth (in 1Cor 14) - is "approved" because it is "in scripture" was in no way an "indicator" to the saints at Corinth or in Ephesus or anywhere else - as to how they would know a real prophet from a false one.

The second point is that one must agree that the list of spiritual gifts God gives in 1Cor 12 - are "valid". If they are not - then even those in Corinth would have to all be false prophets. (And of course - we know they are not).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

So the first point is that our knowing today that the unnumbered group of prophets mentioned in Corinth (in 1Cor 14) - is "approved" because it is "in scripture" was in no way an "indicator" to the saints at Corinth or in Ephesus or anywhere else - as to how they would know a real prophet from a false one.

Agreed, we know they are prophets but they back then would only know by what? They gave prophecy and much of that prophecy came to be within their life time, thus future prophecy which may be hundreds of years down the road, long after they have past, can also be trusted because they already proved that God had spoken through them in the past.

What prophecy did Ellen make which had come true in her life time? It would need to be specific, beyond any shadow of doubt, nothing in any grey area.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

We have nothing from the prophets of Corinth today that would tell us what they were speaking about - so not much "we" can do to analyze what they were saying.

The point is that NT Christians never had the luxury of evaluating the 1Cor 12 "Gift" of prophecy claimed by a fellow church member - based on the simple test of "finding that church member's name in scripture". I think we agree on that. This means they actually had to use the Biblical tests of a prophet to know who was really a prophet.

(This has been true for God's people at all points in history when dealing with contemporaries).

Ellen White had visions about the past, her present and the future. She had vision about this world, about heaven and to at least a tiny extent -- about other worlds. She saw the second coming, the new Jerusalem, the Millennium, the Lake of Fire, the fall of Lucifer, the war in heaven, the two resurrections and described things like heaven, the repaired relationship between protestants and Catholics in America, the rise of the US to world dominant power, The rise of conservative Christianity to becoming a major political force determining elections and influencing public policy, Christ's ministry in heaven today, the tree of life etc.

So "tons of claims" to be inspired etc.

It is pretty hard to miss the point that she is "claiming" inspiration.

As to whether she really IS inspired is another matter entirely. For that you need to go to the Bible tests of a prophet. Since her visions cover almost every doctrinal point in Adventism it is "safe to say" that she was "claiming" that those doctrines are something God agree with (at the very least). Obviously if the ones she spoke to as being confirmed/affirmed/endorsed by God are found to be false - then the message regarding those doctrines could not possibly have come from God and her claim would be proven to be false.

This is the point I always make when it comes to a Christian in denomination A evaluating a prophet IN denomination B. IF the B prophet claims ANYTHING about God affirming a doctrine that is "different" between A and B - A must always conclude that B is a false prophet.

There is no way around that!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Ok, post a prophecy writing of her's and then declare how the event took place within her lifetime. Prophecy always has some precise details which could not be known before it has happened.

God Bless!

 

[Eric B]

How many Sabbath keeping Christian churches accept evolutionism? How many of them have a problem with members being confused that maybe all they need is an hour in church plus a day in the shopping mall. How many Christians churches that reject evolutionism embrace the gay agenda?

So what does this mean? That this one doctrine is what has preserved all the truth in sects that maintain it? Or is it the fact that sabbathkeeping has not become as mainstream as Sunday, in order for enough watered down churches to proliferate in the movement?
On the other hand; look at the progression from SDA to CG7 (adding Passover, rejecting the Trinity in favor of binitariansm, as well as holidays and birthdays), and then Armstrongism (Adding the rest of the Holy Days, tiple tithing, Authoritarianism; bridism ("only true church"), forbidding voting, etc. Then the sacred names rejectng the "pagan""God" in favor of YHWH, and changing all the names in the Bible. And then even more radical groups that reject the deity of Christ, and have compounds that they claim are the only true place where you must be to be saved.
Then there's the Davidians (shepherd's Rod), and then the Branch Davidians.

False religions and practices come about whenever man tries to go his own way; even if it is in the name of God. So that is no way to prove who is right in this issue.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Ok, post a prophecy writing of her's and then declare how the event took place within her lifetime. Prophecy always has some precise details which could not be known before it has happened.

God Bless!

True enough. Although it would be difficult to point to something "In the book of Revalation" and say "here is someting that took place IN John's lifetime that came to pass in his lifetime but with details that nobody else knew" -- agreed?

In the mean time there are about 2000 visions and dreams that Ellen White claimed to have had. I will try to select one that meets the criteria above.

Having said - that - this really has nothing to do with the Sabbath topic as that doctrine must stand or fall based on the Bible evidence alone.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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How many Sabbath keeping Christian churches accept evolutionism? How many of them have a problem with members being confused that maybe all they need is an hour in church plus a day in the shopping mall. How many Christians churches that reject evolutionism embrace the gay agenda?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric said --
So what does this mean? That this one doctrine is what has preserved all the truth in sects that maintain it? Or is it the fact that sabbathkeeping has not become as mainstream as Sunday, in order for enough watered down churches to proliferate in the movement?
On the other hand; look at the progression from SDA to ...

Whoa - that was some wild leaping on your part.

I am simply pointing out the obvious fact that those churches that stick to a literal creation week (as those would do who honor Christ the Creator's Creation-week Holy Day) are NOT among those who end up swallowing evilutionism and "Downgrading" the day of worship to the "hour of worship" and the fact that ONLY the evolutionist Christian groups ALSO go for the gay agenda in the pulpit. (OR had you not noticed that "yet"?).

IF YOU think it is as common to find SDAS in CG7 AS IT IS to find non-Sabbath keeping Christians reducing the "DAY" of worship to the "HGUR" of worship - you have not been getting out of bed on Sunday.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

I never said there were any SDA's IN CG7's. I was just mentioning the progression, pointing to the fact that the seventh day movement has problem groups of its own, and it did look like you were claiming that being 7th day is what prevents groups from accepting evolutionism, the gay agenda, or worshipping God in one hour only.
And man of the other 7th day movements do not really accept the "literal" creation, but rather the "re-creation" ism of the gap theory.

What is it with you and this "evilutionism", anyway? I have always noticed, way back from my days of going to the SDA bookstore (right next to the main public library--the one with the famous pair of lions), and reading "Unfolding the Revelation" and "God Cares", and various tracts, the focus the SDA's put on evolutionism. You're just as bad as the CRI of Henry Morris & Company, with all the conspiracy rhetoric. I never could figure out how evolution was supposed to be such a big deal if the main sin of the end times was to be a national Sunday law enforced by Bible-believing Christians; most of whom agreed on a young-earth literal Creation (which they also try to force on everyone), and the SDA's rightly pointed out that their Sunday law comes about from their aim to fight the secularism and humanism of atheistic education. It looks like you would be right beside them in their fight, but then the days of worship would become a conflict. Acting so threatened by a theory does not look objective; especially to those who believe in it, whom you're trying to convince of a Creator.

It's just a theory men have come up with, like all the others in the world. The focus is always more on the men and their "evil" doctrine, than on the Devil, who is the real father of all falsehood. And then, the methods of trying to force all the scientific data to conform to a 6000 year model often have not been convincing. We should just emphasize that all of those kinds of details are believed by faith, and not try to beat them at their methods of proof, and then get angry and denounce them because of their beliefs as if God and the Bible account could directly be proven and they still rejected it.

 

[BobRyan]

I never said there were any SDA's IN CG7's. I was just mentioning the progression, pointing to the fact that the seventh day movement has problem groups of its own, and it did look like you were claiming that being 7th day is what prevents groups from accepting evolutionism, the gay agenda, or worshipping God in one hour only.

Yes - my point is that in order to embrace evolutionism you must first reject Christ the Creator's teaching on origins and to do that - you can't be honoring Christ the Creator's Creation-memorial.

Once evolutionism is embraced THEN you finally have the basis for the gay agenda and abortion rights taught from the pulpit, because humanism is now the core of your church.

It is a logical and I think (given enough time) inevitable sequence for those that embrace evolutionism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
In the mean time there are about 2000 visions and dreams that Ellen White claimed to have had. I will try to select one that meets the criteria above.

Here is a link to a site listing a few sample predictions she made

http://www.ellengwhite.info/predictions.htm

The one about Moses Hull is an example of something predicted and fulfilled "in her lifetime".

Another example of something predicted (that is mentioned there) is that the strong Anti-Catholic sentiment of the 1800's and early 1900's would be replaced by a strong American Protestant and Catholic partnership. (We see most of that today). And that eventually this partnership would also include spiritualism - whose acceptance would be first embraced by Catholicism and then later by Protestantism via their connection/partnership with Catholicism.

She also made prediction about the Civil War just prior to the start of that war - when South Carolina was proposing a withdrawal.

A side note of a little "interest" on her predictions regarding tall fireproof buildings in NY burning and crashing to the ground in heaps. That prediction is found in a single chapter in her book "Testimonies to the Church" found in Volume 9 pg 11.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 06, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Alcott]

She's a regular Nostradamus, ain't she?

You're right about that page just covering a "few samples" which have to be bent and twisted to 'mean' something that later happened. And that was really brilliant predicting the Civl War so close to when it began. Surely nobody else saw that coming.

Where is a comprehensive list of all-- at least most-- of her "predictions?"

 

[BobRyan]

The point being - John wrote the same way. How many events did John predict for his day?

You needed to "view the details" of South Carolina's first proposed withdrawal and actually know something about the politics preceeding the Civil War to understand that your hindsight today is not what they were working with at the time.

Isn't it "amazing" that the prophet's words fit your hindsight but the political thinking and "predictions" of that time did not?

Isn't it interesting that the predictions about American Protestantism and Catholicism so radically "different" from the popular concensus of the 1800's has turned out to be perfectly correct?

It is intersting that when "predicting history" as you are doing - your "predictions" about the Civil War match what she was saying would happen in her future.

And then of course there is the claim about "fireproof buildings" in NY. Why pick on "fireproof" building as the prime example of destruction by fire? Why not Earthquake? There were "other options".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

However there are even more striking examples of letters written ahead of time for problems in meetings seen - that had not taken place yet.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

To summarize, Ellen White's late 1901 vision predicted:

Skyscrapers would be built in New York City.
These buildings would be considered fireproof.
An alarm of fire would be followed by people on the ground saying that the "lofty" buildings were "perfectly safe."
They would burn as pitch.
The fire engines wouldn't be able to stop the inferno.
The firemen wouldn't be able to operate their fire engines.
The buildings would fall.
The fearfulness of it all would be unimaginable.

Didn't they miss one key point?

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?

Why would God send His wrath upon His children? There were many Christians in these buildings as well as many of the firefighters who perished. Did God do this?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I was shown the inhabitants of the earth in the utmost confusion. There was war, bloodshed, want, privation, famine and pestilence, in the land; and as these things were without, God's people began to press together, and cast aside their little difficulties. Self-dignity no longer controlled them. Deep humility took its place. Suffering, perplexity and privation, caused reason to resume its throne, and the passionate and unreasonable man became sane, and acted with discretion and wisdom.

This is WWI?

"Christians pressing together, casting aside their little dificulties" is what ended this war? Was it a war among Christians? Christian against Christian?

Wasn't the Russians on our side in WWI? They are hardly God's people.

My attention was then called from the scene. There seemed to be a little time of peace. Then the inhabitants of the earth were again presented before me, and everything was in the utmost confusion again. Strife, war and bloodshed, with famine and pestilence, raged everywhere. Other nations were engaged in this confusion and war. War caused famine. Want and bloodshed caused pestilence. And then men's hearts will fail them for fear, "and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth."

Notice how also the vision predicted that the second war would involve more nations than the first war.

Where? Both quotes say "the inhabitants of the earth". Which begs the question, if the inhabitants of the earth are fighting then who are "the other nations"? Aliens?

History tells us that these wars were deadly, as the vision also indicated:

Is there any other kind of war?

In the vision's descriptions of both wars, famine and pestilence are emphasized. This was also a characteristic of both wars:

As well as all wars.

I like the opinion poll at the end which has no vote for "it doesn't look like prohecy at all".

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

The one about Moses Hull is an example of something predicted and fulfilled "in her lifetime".

I read through it. She predicted nothing but merely gave "ifs". If Hull does this, this will happen. If Hull does that, that will happen. Which is true for anybody. You reap what you sow.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Actually the example with the Catholic Church and Protestants in America is a striking fulfillment - so also the prediction about the Civil War months before it started - based on legislation in South Carolina alone. As stated in the article - neither side expected a "long protracted war" and the southern states had not even decided to align.

Other examples include the insights into the Free Masonry problem for one specific leader where the vision precedes the meeting by a year or more.

There are other examples of this same kind of advance vision and letters written to individuals weeks/months before the information is given or in some cases - before the event seen takes place.


However - as also noted - this really has nothing to do with the Bible evidence for or against Christ's Sabbath and it is not a form of "validation" that would apply even to someone like John.

The is no such thing as a test for John where he must predict events in HIS lifetime if he is also given views of the future. In fact - there is no such test in all of scripture. I am just playing along since in this case she does have some incidents in that category.

In Daniel 2 the vision predicts more empires but does not say "when" the Babylonian empire will end. Daniel was already validated even though he had no specific "local prediction" available.

In Daniel 6 It is predicted that the King will be dethroned "that very night" not 3 months away.

In Daniel 7 we see the progression of 4 empires but there is no idication about how long the first 4 empires will rule.

Daniel is validated by the actual tests of a prophet.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The is no such thing as a test for John where he must predict events in HIS lifetime if he is also given views of the future.

John was already validated BY scripture prior to delivering Revelation. He was a personally chosen disciple and a chosen apostle BY Christ Himself. Unless you do not accept scripture.

What about New York? I would like your thoughts.

Didn't they miss one key point?

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?

Why would God send His wrath upon His children? There were many Christians in these buildings as well as many of the firefighters who perished. Did God do this?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Again - this has nothing to do with the Bible evidence for or against Christ the Creator's Holy day --- but...

#1. There were many infants and children destroyed in the flood. Are you asking me if God would ever allow evil to damage infants as in the case of NY? Are you asking if the reference to "tall fireproof buildings burning rapidly" is "coincidence"?

#2. Are you saying that Thomas and John were both writing scripture because both were Apostles? Are you saying that there was no need for John to "predict something for HIS DAY" to be a valid Prophet? Are you saying that Daniel was not a "prophet" in Daniel 2 - until he later gets a message about an event in "his day"??

In any case - the Civil War example, The WWI and WWII example, The RCC and Protestant America Example, the secrets of the Masonic cult that were revealed to one of its practicing members, the account of a man who affirmed that Ellen White's first vision was the same one given to him prior to her vision. One that he tried to relate only after telling God he would not take up that ministry.

BTW - I hope you are not taking this as an effort to convince anyone about Ellen White. I am simply showing that I HAVE reasons to consider her claims to the gift of 1Cor 12 that include BOTH the type of predictions that the Bible shows in cases like John AND some other shorter term predictions.

As for John - he wrote after most of the other Apostles had moved out of Jerusalem or were killed. THEY would not have known him as a Bible writer. Paul says that ALL -- even Apostles are to be tested. (Gal 1:6-11) -- even if the source is "angel from heaven" the Bible tests still apply.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Hi Bob,

Allow me to clarify what I am asking...

Didn't they miss one key point?

Ellen said... " I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ."

Ellen said that God would do this destruction to these buildings.

Do you believe that God did this Bob?


God Bless!