The Sabbath by Christ in Isaiah

[Dr. Walter]

You are making this theology up as you go along, pulling a little from one source and a little from another. It is not totally Biblical.

There is a great deal of Biblical data available that you are not willing to consider. Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5; Leviticus 23,25; Mark 2; 2 Cor. 3:Heb. 4 all provide significant data in regard to the creational sabbath.

The same law written in stone under the Old Covenant is written upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3) under the New Covenant. Jesus taught more on the fourth commandment than any other of the ten commandments. To say that it is the only commandment not mentioned in the New Testament is simply not true.



2 Cor. 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

You may choose to rid the term "Sabbath" but the fourth commandment has not been withdrawn by God under either the Old or New Covenants.

First, there is a principle to draw from the seven days of creation--that God rested on the seventh day. The principle to learn is that man should set apart one day out of seven to rest. Nothing more can be ascertained out of that passage than that. To eisigete anything more is wrong.

You cannot draw a line where the Scriptures do not draw such a line or make such a restriction where the Scriptures do not. There is far more mentioned in Scripture concerning the Sabbath than one day of rest out of seven. Even you own interpretation of the Sabbath fulfilled in Christ demands much more than a mere day of rest in seven. Hebrews 4:1-11 certainly draws more out of the Sabbath law than merely a 24 hour period of rest out of seven 24 hour periods. Leviticus 23 and 25 certainly draws more out of the Sabbath law than a 24 hour period of rest out of seven 24 hour days. You just as well take a pen knife and cut out of the Bible the great bulk of scriptures deailing with the Sabbath and God's intent behind it.

Second, do away with the word "sabbath." Christians don't have a "sabbath," and don't need one. We need a Sabbath just as bad as we need a "Juma" or the Muslim holy day of Friday. What is the difference? None. The only reason Christians worship on Sunday is to remember and/or respect the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no command to to worship on that day, and certainly no command to worship on Saturday, the sabbath day. We are not bound by days. All days are made FOR man (ie., the believer in Christ).

Your so opposed to legalism that you are either incapable or unwilling to objectively evaluate the total Biblical evidence. Jesus did not say "all days are made for man" nor did Jesus identify every day of the week as "the Lord's day." That is simply eisgesis at its worst. You cannot deal with the text so you change it to suit your own theory.

Jesus referrred to the creational sabbath when he said it was "made for [the] man" not just the Jew. You cannot honestly dispute that as Jesus claims to be the "Lord of the Sabbath" which is a claim to be its creator and it was not "made" in Exodus or Deuteronomy, indeed, Exodus and Deuteromony are based wholly upon the creational sabbath and the Jews are called to "REMEMBER" it. You are simply just not dealing with Mark 2 honestly or objectively because you fear legalism.

The fourth commandment has not been dropped from God's law any more than any other of the ten.

There is no legalism in a New Covenant Sabbath observance (Heb. 4:9) as it is wholly without all the Old Covenant Levitical restrictions. It is far more glorious than the creational Sabbath as it commemorates the work of redemption that brings in a new heaven and earth or a new creation. The essence of its observance is found in the prinicples of the Sabbath not the levitical legislations. The priniciple of "we will rejoice and be glad IN IT." As well as, the principle of selfless laboring (Isa. 58:13) for the glory of God and the good of others. Jesus said "it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath" and "My Father worketh hither to and so do I."

The Old Covenant Sabbath gave emphasis to the SEVENTH period of time (day, month, year, millennium - Lev. 23,25).

The Old Covenant Levitical Feasts in Leviticus 23 and 25 provide the type of the New Covenant and the emphasis of the New Covenant Sabbath observance on the FIRST (first day, month, year, etc.).

If you accept that the Sabbath rest is fulfilled "in Christ" then be consistent! We have only entered ONE ASPECT of rest in Christ and that is SPIRITUAL through new birth! There is much more of that rest in Christ we have yet to enter into that identifies with other aspects of our salvation (sanctification; glorification; new heaven and new earth). This is Paul's argument in Hebrew 4 - even Old Testament saints entered into that rest when they believed in the gospel (Heb. 4:2-3) the same as us but that did not completely fulfill the intent behind the creation of the Sabbath. Joshua did not fulfill that intent by bringing the Jews into the LAND OF REST. David did not fulfill that intent by bring the Jews into REST from all their enemies. The Sabbath intent under the Old and New Covenant has not yet been fulfilled. The Old covenant application of the fourth commandment will not be fulfilled until the Jew is saved, restored to Palestine and rule over their enemies in the Seventh Millennium. The New Covenant applicatiion of the fourth commandment will not be fulfilled until we are spirit soul and body freed from the presence of sin in a creation that is free from the presence of sin. That is what we are to "REMEMBER" when we look back at the creational Sabbath - a sinless creation at perfect rest with its creator. HOwever, the cross, the work of Christ, which the Lord's day commemorates is a greater Sabbath that anticipates a greater creation yet to come where no sin will ever spoil it.

Moreover, you cannot honestly and objectively deal with the term "the Lord's day." The very terms were well known in the first century as a day set apart unto Ceasar for a prescribed way of worship as the god man. To claim that every day of the week is the Lord's day is simply absurd and dishonest. To claim we cannot or do not know or understand the terms is simply stupidity on display. There is nothing difficult about the terms for anyone who is honest and objective with the words and usage.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What both of you are failing to see is the fourth commandment in its relationship with two different covenants.

The fourth commandment, nor the creation of the Sabbath in Genesis 2 ever mention or include the words "of the week." There are seven days and six precede a Seventh Sabbath day. The omission "of the week" is significant as the inclusion of that phrase would have restricted it to only one application and that is the seventh day of the week. However, God does not restrict His own application of the Sabbath law to one specific day "of the week" nor even restrict it to a 24 hour period (month, year, millennium). Indeed, He applies it to other days of the week (1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th,) and other periods than the seventh (50th day, 50th year).

You cannot restrict the Sabbath law to something less than God's own application of the Sabbath law and when you demand the fourth commandment means seventh "day of the week" that is precisely what you do and the Bible does not! You have to add that restrictive phrase to God's Word and it is a dangerous business to add words to God's choice of words.

However, there is nothing wrong in applying it to the seventh day "of the week" as God makes such an application in the monthly feasts (Lev. 23). Indeed, this is the Old Covenant EMPHASES in regard to the fourth commandment application.

On the other hand, within the Levitical TYPES of the New Covenant and the redemptive work of Christ it is not the SEVENTH day, month, year that is the emphasis of the New Covenant application of the fourth commandment but rather the emphasis falls consistently and repeatedly on the first day of the week (Lev. 23).

Neither of you can see this distinct difference of emphases between the Old and New Covenant application of the fourth commandment. Your blind to it and hence you will both defend the LEGALISTIC emphasis of the fourth commandment rather than see its true ultimate fulfillment.

 

[DHK]

There is a great deal of Biblical data available that you are not willing to consider. Exodus 20; Deuteronomy 5; Leviticus 23,25; Mark 2; 2 Cor. 3:Heb. 4 all provide significant data in regard to the creational sabbath.

The same law written in stone under the Old Covenant is written upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3) under the New Covenant. Jesus taught more on the fourth commandment than any other of the ten commandments. To say that it is the only commandment not mentioned in the New Testament is simply not true.

2 Cor. 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

You may choose to rid the term "Sabbath" but the fourth commandment has not been withdrawn by God under either the Old or New Covenants.

Scripture does not contradict itself. You choose to ignore Exodus 31 which clearly states that the Sabbath is and always will be a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and the nation of Israel and her generations forever. That has never been rescinded. The nation of Israel are the only people to whom the Sabbath Day was given as a command to keep.

As much as I challenge you to do so, you have never found me another Scriptural command that commands believers to keep the Sabbath. It is all frivolous eisigesous.

You cannot draw a line where the Scriptures do not draw such a line or make such a restriction where the Scriptures do not. There is far more mentioned in Scripture concerning the Sabbath than one day of rest out of seven. Even you own interpretation of the Sabbath fulfilled in Christ demands much more than a mere day of rest in seven. Hebrews 4:1-11 certainly draws more out of the Sabbath law than merely a 24 hour period of rest out of seven 24 hour periods. Leviticus 23 and 25 certainly draws more out of the Sabbath law than a 24 hour period of rest out of seven 24 hour days. You just as well take a pen knife and cut out of the Bible the great bulk of scriptures deailing with the Sabbath and God's intent behind it.

1. The one principle drawn from the creation is that God rested on the seventh day; man should rest one day out of seven. That is all.
2. All else was fulfilled at the cross. If you keep the others laws concerning the Sabbath you put yourself in the same class as a Jew. Pardon me, but what tribe did you say you were from?

Your so opposed to legalism that you are either incapable or unwilling to objectively evaluate the total Biblical evidence. Jesus did not say "all days are made for man" nor did Jesus identify every day of the week as "the Lord's day." That is simply eisgesis at its worst. You cannot deal with the text so you change it to suit your own theory.

Paul said that one man regards one day above another; another man regards every day alike. The principle: There is no day that is more holy than another.
However you won't look at the real meaning of what Jesus said:
Man is not made for the Sabbath. The meaning is, Man is not made to be a slave to the Sabbath as the Pharisees were subjecting the Jews by their rules and regulation. Rather the Sabbath was made for man, like every other day. We live in an age of grace. Man works 5 to 6 days a day. The Sabbath was one day of rest, made for man, that he might rest. That is what Jesus meant. The Pharisess made it more a day of work and toil and slavery by bondage to their rules and regulations.

Jesus referrred to the creational sabbath when he said it was "made for [the] man" not just the Jew.

You conveniently skip over the context in which he said that.

You cannot honestly dispute that as Jesus claims to be the "Lord of the Sabbath" which is a claim to be its creator and it was not "made" in Exodus or Deuteronomy, indeed, Exodus and Deuteromony are based wholly upon the creational sabbath and the Jews are called to "REMEMBER" it. You are simply just not dealing with Mark 2 honestly or objectively because you fear legalism.

Again you simply read your meaning into a passage not caring for the context of the passage. I gave it to you. You ignore it.

The fourth commandment has not been dropped from God's law any more than any other of the ten.

The fourth commandment was never given to the Gentile Believer. Or do you know believe the visions of Ellen G. White?

There is no legalism in a New Covenant Sabbath observance (Heb. 4:9) as it is wholly without all the Old Covenant Levitical restrictions. It is far more glorious than the creational Sabbath as it commemorates the work of redemption that brings in a new heaven and earth or a new creation.

There is much legalism here. You have made up a man-made religion based on the legalistic Judaism of the OT Covenant. That is a shame.

The essence of its observance is found in the prinicples of the Sabbath not the levitical legislations. The priniciple of "we will rejoice and be glad IN IT."

Be glad in what? This is the day that the Lord hath made--not the sabbath--but every day. You are taking Scripture out of context.

As well as, the principle of selfless laboring (Isa. 58:13) for the glory of God and the good of others. Jesus said "it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath" and "My Father worketh hither to and so do I."

A rebuke to the Pharisees, whose side you seem to be taking.

The Old Covenant Sabbath gave emphasis to the SEVENTH period of time (day, month, year, millennium - Lev. 23,25).

Are all of your clothes made all of one type of cloth as well?
Be sure to observe all the law if you observe part of the law. Be consistent.

The Old Covenant Levitical Feasts in Leviticus 23 and 25 provide the type of the New Covenant and the emphasis of the New Covenant Sabbath observance on the FIRST (first day, month, year, etc.).

Then observe all the law, as you think you must observe the sabbath. Be consistent.

If you accept that the Sabbath rest is fulfilled "in Christ" then be consistent! We have only entered ONE ASPECT of rest in Christ and that is SPIRITUAL through new birth!

You are the one not consistent. I said that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ; Christ himself being our Sabbath. Christ is the Lamb, as when John said: "Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world," but I don't sacrifice lambs today. You keep the Sabbath still even though Christ is the Sabbath. You keep the law even though the law has been fulfilled in Christ. You have put yourself under the OT dispensation, and therefore obligate yourself to keep all the law.

There is much more of that rest in Christ we have yet to enter into that identifies with other aspects of our salvation (sanctification; glorification; new heaven and new earth). This is Paul's argument in Hebrew 4 - even Old Testament saints entered into that rest when they believed in the gospel (Heb. 4:2-3) the same as us but that did not completely fulfill the intent behind the creation of the Sabbath. Joshua did not fulfill that intent by bringing the Jews into the LAND OF REST. David did not fulfill that intent by bring the Jews into REST from all their enemies. The Sabbath intent under the Old and New Covenant has not yet been fulfilled. The Old covenant application of the fourth commandment will not be fulfilled until the Jew is saved, restored to Palestine and rule over their enemies in the Seventh Millennium. The New Covenant applicatiion of the fourth commandment will not be fulfilled until we are spirit soul and body freed from the presence of sin in a creation that is free from the presence of sin. That is what we are to "REMEMBER" when we look back at the creational Sabbath - a sinless creation at perfect rest with its creator. HOwever, the cross, the work of Christ, which the Lord's day commemorates is a greater Sabbath that anticipates a greater creation yet to come where no sin will ever spoil it.

Believe what you will. I have entered into that rest. That rest is Christ. And if you do not have "that Rest," you are missing out on something.

Moreover, you cannot honestly and objectively deal with the term "the Lord's day." The very terms were well known in the first century as a day set apart unto Ceasar for a prescribed way of worship as the god man.

That is example; not command. There is no command to worship on that day. If you want example, be as the early church did and worship on every day of the week. Example does not equate to command.

To claim that every day of the week is the Lord's day is simply absurd and dishonest. To claim we cannot or do not know or understand the terms is simply stupidity on display.[/qutoe]
The language of one who has lost his argument.

There is nothing difficult about the terms for anyone who is honest and objective with the words and usage.

The term "sabbath" was given to the nation of Israel and only to the nation of Israel. You have not been able to show me in the Scriptures otherwise.

 

[billwald]

>The same law written in stone under the Old Covenant is written upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3) under the New Covenant.

Exactly what does "written on the heart" mean? What is the observable evidence of this event?

 

[DHK]

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another (Romans 2:14-15)
1. They show the law, written in their hearts, by their works.
2. They show the law, written in their hearts, by their conscience.
3. Their conscience accuses them of their wrong when they sin.
4. Their sin nature makes them prone to accuse others when they sin.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Scripture does not contradict itself. You choose to ignore Exodus 31 which clearly states that the Sabbath is and always will be a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and the nation of Israel and her generations forever. ]

Jesus said it was made "for man" and that includes the Jew but does not exclude the Gentile. Thus Moses and Jesus harmonize but you pit them one against the other. "Man" does not mean "jew" only. Your hermeutic principle is faulty. Since when does the application of a law to some mean it excludes all others. Try that with the other nine!

As much as I challenge you to do so, you have never found me another Scriptural command that commands believers to keep the Sabbath.

That is simply not true. You take my response and interpret them to please yourself and your position. I have given you Mark 2 and in context it does not deny that "man" includes more than the Jew. Simply because the audiance is Jewish does not mean it is restricted to a Jewish audiance. If that were true then you have just done away with all the parables and everything else Jesus said as the audiance was Jewish.

1. The one principle drawn from the creation is that God rested on the seventh day; man should rest one day out of seven. That is all.
2. All else was fulfilled at the cross. If you keep the others laws concerning the Sabbath you put yourself in the same class as a Jew. Pardon me, but what tribe did you say you were from?

This is your position but it is not the Biblical position. Hebrews 4:11 clearly and explicitly states there is a "rest" that is still future and still must be entered into in direct relationship with the Sabbath creation rest (Heb. 4:3-4).

Secondly, you are intentionally distorting my position or else you simply don't understand my position. I do not believe we are under the Old Covenant in any way, shape or form.

What you fail to understand is that under the Old Covenant there are New Covenant principles and types. Leviticus 23,25 provide New Covenant principles and types under the Old Covenant administration. We are not under these Old Covenant administrations but we are under the New Covenant principles seen in the types and its these types that I have been point out! These New Covenant principles include the Sabbath as the first day of the week.

Paul said that one man regards one day above another; another man regards every day alike. The principle: There is no day that is more holy than another.

Another text jerked out of context. Paul is explicitly speaking about things neither good or evil in and of themselves and he is not speaking about Biblical commands or Biblical principles. He is speaking about customary cultural foods and cultural days. He is not talking about the fourth commandment or the Bibical Sabbath.

However you won't look at the real meaning of what Jesus said:
Man is not made for the Sabbath. The meaning is, Man is not made to be a slave to the Sabbath as the Pharisees were subjecting the Jews by their rules and regulation. Rather the Sabbath was made for man, like every other day.

I have never disputed that he is rebuking the Phariseeical abuse of the Sabbath - that is a given. But when you add "like every other day" you are guilty of abusive eisgesis to the hilt. You know very well that "every other day" is never referred to as the Sabbath or in the same prominence with the Sabbath. Indeed, the setting apart of the Sabbath was setting it apart from "every other day" as distinct and different not as equal and the same. However, you eisgetical insertion "like every other day" not only denies the special distinction of the Sabbath day but is simply mishandling God's Word.

You conveniently skip over the context in which he said that.

I don't skip over it at all. It is not a factor in this discussion. The very next words of Jesus was to assert Himself as the Creator when saying He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is talking about the creational sabbath when there was no Jew, as no Jew existed when He the Creator "made the Sabbath." He is not talking about instructing the Jew to "REMEMBER" the creational sabbath but when he made the sabbath in Genesis 2 for "the man" or mankind in Adam. So simple and yet you are so biased and so antagonistic you cannot even objectively admit to the obvious.

The fourth commandment was never given to the Gentile Believer. Or do you know believe the visions of Ellen G. White?

The same law written on stone is written on the heart of God's elect in before and after the cross (2 Cor. 3:3). The fourth commandment has nothing to say about any day "OF THE WEEK." The sanctification (SETTING APART) of the creational Sabbath has nothing to say about any day "OF THE WEEK). That is Mrs. White's and your idea not God's or His Word. Certainly it includes in its application one of many days "of the week" but it not RESTRICTED to any day "of the week." There are simply SEVEN DAYS in the fourth command model.

Secondarily, in direct connection with the use of "yom" as a 24 hour day in regard to creation, the Sabbath is given in direct connection with "yom" as a longer period of time (Gen. 2:4-5) and this is easily seen in God's own application of the Sabbath Law (day, month, year, etc.).

There is much legalism here. You have made up a man-made religion based on the legalistic Judaism of the OT Covenant.

Try to understand my position rather than distorting it! I do not believe we are under any aspect of the Old Covenant. The Sabbath predates the giving of the Old Covenant (Gen. 2; Ex. 16). I simply point out in Leviticus 23,25 that in the Old Covenant expression/administration/form there are truths about the New Covenant typified and it is in these types (feasts) the New Covenant Sabbath is clearly seen and taught.

I do not believe the New Covenant Sabbath day has any relationship to the Leviticual laws or Old Covenant except that it is seen in the typology as is other New Covenant truths and applications.

Be glad in what? This is the day that the Lord hath made--not the sabbath--but every day.

Why don't you do a serious study of the context of this statement and its New Testament implications??? Afraid? I could take this one passage and its New Testament applications and expose your abuse of this text. The Hebrew term "made" can be understood "made to observe" and the context supports that meaning as it explicitly tells the reader how it is to be observed "be glad and rejoice IN IT." He is speaking conversely to what the Jews did to Christ - they crucified and killed and buried him but God's response was to raise him up again and it is on a certain "day" that resurrection was determined by God and thus "made to be observed" by God (Acts 4:10-11).

A rebuke to the Pharisees, whose side you seem to be taking.

I have answered this above

Are all of your clothes made all of one type of cloth as well?
Be sure to observe all the law if you observe part of the law. Be consistent.

I am consistent. You simply pervert my position in order to make this accusation. For example, I don't place myself under the one type of cloth law but the PRINCIPLE that this law was desgined to TYPIFY is an eternal principle that I am under and so are you. Likewise, the Sabbath law applications in Leviticus 23,25. The truths typified in the administrations/form of the Old Covenant are eternal truths and applicable as New Covenant truths. I do not observe the Passover over, but I observe the Lord's Supper and believe in the gospel. I do not observe the Seventh day application of the Jew under the Old Covenant but I observe the Seventh day application under the New Covenant according to its intent, design, priniciples that are eternal as Christ Himself.

Then observe all the law, as you think you must observe the sabbath. Be consistent.

I observe the Law as administered under the New Covenant (2 Cor. 3:3) as the "law of Liberty" and as "the Lord's Day" and first day of the week rather than the seventh day "of the week" as the Jews applied it under the Old Covenant in keeping with the Levitical feasts. I do not observe the law in any fashion in order to be saved but we keep the "new" commandment out of love for Christ.

You are the one not consistent. I said that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ; Christ himself being our Sabbath. Christ is the Lamb, as when John said: "Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world," but I don't sacrifice lambs today. You keep the Sabbath still even though Christ is the Sabbath. You keep the law even though the law has been fulfilled in Christ. You have put yourself under the OT dispensation, and therefore obligate yourself to keep all the law.

No, you are not consistent. You are not yet entirely "in Christ" in regard to your body. There is a "rest" yet to enter (Heb. 4:11) which "rest" is in direct connection with the creation rest (Heb. 4:3-4). There is more application of the Sabbath rest than mere SPIRITUAL as the rest of God in Genesis 2 is a rest where God, man and creation are all in harmony without sin - that is the creation rest where God can look upon everything and say "it is very good." God cannot say that about creation. He cannot say that about you or me until we are completely conformed to his image.

The term "sabbath" was given to the nation of Israel and only to the nation of Israel. You have not been able to show me in the Scriptures otherwise.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dr Walter:

The Old Covenant application with Israel will have its fulfillment in the Seventh Millennium but the New Covenant application with Israel and all of God's elect will have its full and eternal fulfillment in the EIGHTH and ETERNAL day of the New heavens and new earth.


GE:

Just as I have anticipated and predicted!
From which Scriptures do you derive all this, Dr Walter?
From your fancies, Dr Walter! From your fabulous fancies.


Dr Walter:

This is precisely why the Sabbath command incoporates both the seventh and first/eight day applications in the TYPE to Israel (Lev. 23,25).


GE:

“…the seventh and first/eight day applications…” “in”, “Lev. 23,25”?!
Why don’t you quote “…the seventh and first/eight day applications…” “in”, “Lev. 23,25”?
Because you know you talk non-existent nonsense.


Dr Walter:

The work of Christ establishes the Sabbath observance on a BETTER DAY (first, eighth) simply because it anticipates and commemorates the BETTER fulfillment of the creational sabbath.


GE:

Christ with his works certainly established Sabbath observance on a BETTER DAY— on the ‘day’ and the BASIS of salvation in Christ, the ‘Gospel- day’. “If _JESUS_ had given them rest, then God afterward would not speak concerning another day”— OF SALVATION-REST or “another … Author of salvation”! Hebrews 4:8. “He became the Author of Eternal Salvation being … called of God High Priest after … the Power of Endless Life!” Hebrews 5:9,10, 7:16. “Because God could … swear by no greater He sware by himself.” 6:13.
On this sure Foundation God from the beginning “established Sabbath observance on a BETTER DAY”— the ‘day’ of “these last days” in which “God has spoken unto us by HIS son” : God’s “Promise” of Jesus Christ. And ALL THE WAY, “God … at sundry (past) times … thus … BY THE SON … concerning THE SEVENTH DAY, spake : And God THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works, RESTED.”

Where do you get your “BETTER DAY (first, eighth)” from? Have you informed God about your discovery He not Himself even knew of? Have you told God how He should BETTER have phrased his WORD?!


Dr Walter:

The work of Christ establishes the Sabbath observance on a BETTER DAY (first, eighth) simply because it anticipates and commemorates the BETTER fulfillment of the creational sabbath.


GE:

Yes! And which “BETTER DAY” was “the creational sabbath”?
“The Seventh Day”!
And WHY was “the Seventh Day”, the “BETTER DAY”?

Herefore:

“On the Seventh Day,
“God ENDED his work (1), and
“on the Seventh Day He RESTED from ALL his work (2),
“and God BLESSED the Seventh Day (3),
“and SANCTIFIED it (4)—
… as SUMMARISED …
“BECAUSE that in it God RESTED from aALL, HIS, WORKS …” :
BY JESUS CHRIST, IN HIM, AND THROUGH HIM, ONCE FOREVER.

Yes?

YES!

“They heard the VOICE of the LORD GOD WALKING in the garden in the evening-cool-of-day [after the Sixth Day] … And the LORD GOD CALLED unto Adam …”

Thus the Seventh Day “was made” the “BETTER DAY”—
by God’s VISIT in Adam’s abode (the Incarnation) (5);
by God’s CALL to Adam the LOST (the Gospel) (6); and
by God’s SACRIFICE OF BLOOD for the forgiveness of sin and CLOTHING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS OF “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”
“The Seventh Day” “God THUS concerning” through Jesus Christ, “spake”.

Who speaks otherwise than God by you, Dr Walter, who speaks of "a BETTER DAY (first, eighth)" instead of "The Seventh Day"?

 

[DHK]

GE:

And I have several times answered you : The legalist, demands Commands and Commandments and Laws and Regulations and Ordinances and what have you EXCEPT Christian FREEDOM to follow after Christ in "ALL the works of God on the Sabbath Day" He did and finished in Christ and through Christ, "rested". Hebrews 4:4.

At least I have bits of Scripture and use them, which you are not privileged to do because you simply do NOT HAVE THEM.

At least now you admit you are a legalist. We live in the age of grace. The Apostle Paul did not tolerate legalists. Read carefully his epistle to the Galatians where legalists were condemned, as they were also in Acts chapter 15.
You admit you take bits of Scripture and use them. Anyone can do that. Most cults do. The good Bible Student will be like Paul whose testimony was: "I have not failed to declare unto you the whole counsel of God."
Have you done that. There is more to the Bible than just the Sabbath.
The Sabbath Day is no where directed to the Gentile believer. They are not commanded to keep it. It was made as a sign for the nation of Israel, and only for the nation of Israel, as per Exodus 31.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thus the Seventh Day “was made” the “BETTER DAY”—
by God’s VISIT in Adam’s abode (the Incarnation) (5);
by God’s CALL to Adam the LOST (the Gospel) (6); and
by God’s SACRIFICE OF BLOOD for the forgiveness of sin and CLOTHING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS OF “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (7)
“The Seventh Day” “God THUS concerning” through Jesus Christ, “spake”.

Oh Ruhe! Ruhe! Gabe der Seligkeit,
die du auf Flügeln der Dämmerung linde
vom Himmel niederschwebst, linde das
Herz mit warmem Hauche, sorgenscheuchend,
berührst, Ruhe, Frieden, Fülle des Seins!
Heut' aus grauen Dämmeraugen blickst
du mich liebreich an und verheissend,
und mein Dank schwillt auf im Herzen… Otto Bierbaum.

 

[Fred's Wife]

At least now you admit you are a legalist. We live in the age of grace. The Apostle Paul did not tolerate legalists. Read carefully his epistle to the Galatians where legalists were condemned, as they were also in Acts chapter 15.
You admit you take bits of Scripture and use them. Anyone can do that. Most cults do. The good Bible Student will be like Paul whose testimony was: "I have not failed to declare unto you the whole counsel of God."
Have you done that. There is more to the Bible than just the Sabbath.
The Sabbath Day is no where directed to the Gentile believer. They are not commanded to keep it. It was made as a sign for the nation of Israel, and only for the nation of Israel, as per Exodus 31.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!

 

[Dr. Walter]

We are covering too much territory and getting nowhere. Let's limit the discussion to Genesis 2:2-3 and Revelation 1:10.

Genesis 2 proves the Sabbath was instituted by God before Israel existed. Instituted by God before the Old Covenant was established with Israel (Gen. 2; Ex. 16). It was "made" by God in Genesis 2 but the Jew was only commanded by God to "remember" this same Sabbath instituted by God. I did not say "only the Jew" but I said "the Jew only" was commanded to "remember" what God had already instituted, blessed and sanctified.

Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

A. Agreed that God sets forth an example and that example is set before Israel to "remember" and immitate.

B. Agreed that God rested on the Seventh day from all the work he did in the previous six days.


However, here is the problem for you to answer. God could have simply rested from all the previous work and stated it without adding that he also "sanctified it" or that he "blessed it." The term "sanctified" means that he "set it apart." He did not place a blessing upon the former six days. He did not sanctify the previous six days and so to say that the Sabbath was "made" for man "just as the other six days" is totally and completely false.

QUESTION: God blessed it and set it apart for who? For himself? Not hardly as Jesus said "the Father worketh hitherto and so do I." Rest from creative work? Not hardly, for every one of God's elect has been, will be "created in Chirst Jesus" post creation. Jesus answers this question but you refuse to accept his answer. Jesus said that God "made" the Sabbath "for the man".

Now you have responded that God "made" it "just as he made the other six days for man." However, that is false and you know it! He did not make the seventh day for man just as he made the other six days for man. Indeed, the reverse is true. He made the six days for man in a completely different sense - to work - but the seventh day he "blessed" and "sanctified" by his own example in ceasing from work and thus in contradiction to the other six days. He provides his own example in working the six previous days just as he provides His own example in ceasing from work on the Seventh day. Hence, God did not make the Sabbath for "man" in the same sense or purpose that he made the previous six days for man. That is simply not true.

The truth is that God did not merely provide His own example in the previus six days and His own example for the seventh day but in addition he "blessed" and "sanctified" the seventh day ABOVE and BEYOND the other six days. What God has blessed is a PRE-Old Covenant Sabbath and you have made "COMMON" what God has not only "blessed" but "sanctified" PREVIOUS to the existence of the Jew, previous to the existence of the giving of the ten commandments, previous to the existence of the giving of the Old Covenant to Israel!


This response demonstrates the unity between Genesis 2:2-3 and Mark 2:27-28 and thus provides a New Testament basis for Sabbath keeping by "the man" not by merely the Jew and also demonstrates it is instituted not merely for example, but "blessed" and "sanctified" by God above other days from creation not merely from Mount Sinai and the giving of the Old Covenant.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

On what day was John "in the Spirit"? The Greek phrase cannot be made to mean "the day of the Lord" as there is a complete distinct difference in wording between the two in the Greek language.

The term "kuriakos" is used in 1 Cor. 11:20 thus demonstrating it is used by the Apostles for that which belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Supper in 1 Corinthians 11:20 is the "Lord's" (kuriakos)

Let's just take the plain clear English. There is a "day" just as there is a "supper" SINGULAR that belongs to the Lord in a special sense. There are all kinds of days and there are all kinds of suppers. But there is ONE (singular) which the Lord claims as His.

QUESTION: Which singular day is that day? The term "kuriakos" was used by the Emperor for Sunday when incense was offered for the purpose to recognize him as both MAN and GOD. During the time of John, exile was a penalty for refusing to offer up a pinch of incense on "the lord's day" to honor Ceasar as MAN and GOD. John was no doubt exiled to Patmos, a known island that enemies of the state were exiled for refusing to offer up a pincy of incense and say "Ceasar is Lord" on "the lord's day."

!. New Testament writers attribute this term to Christ not Ceasar (1 Cor. 11:20; Rev. 1:10).

2. There is consistent contemporary and post New Testament evidence to demonstrate that Sunday was universally recognized as "the Lord's day."

3. Why would the first 300 years of writings within the Roman Empire universally claim "the Lord's day" was Sunday in commemoration of the Lord's resurrection if Sunday was not "the Lord's day"?

4. No New Testament writer or post-New testament writer attributed this phrase to any and every day of the week as your position demands.

5. You have a consistent New Testament example of the first day of the week being set apart from all other days by the Post-resurrection congregations for worship (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2).

NOTE: I am not addressing GE and his wild claims but I am addressing DKH only.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Sabbath principle is six days of work and the seventh day for rest. This is established in the seven days of creation at the beginning of the world. There is no "week" or first, second....seventh day "of the week" in the creation account as the "week" is a later term used to count a segment of days based upon the seven creation days.

Therefore it is legitimate to apply the Sabbath to the Seventh day "of the week" but it is not limited to the seventh day "of the week." In the feasts in Levitiucs 23 in reckoning the days of a "month" the Sabbath law is applied to the seventh day "of the week" within the reckoning of what is a "month" by counting from the "first" day of the month to the last day of the month. However, the Sabbath law is also applied to what would be reckoned in the same kind of month to the first day of the week. Indeed it is applied to the first day of the week MORE OFTEN in the monthly Feasts than to the seventh day of the week.

My point is that you cannot interpret the Sabbath law to be restricted to the seventh day "of the week" when God Himself violates such a restriction and applies the Sabbath law to other days of the week. Hence, Leviticus gives Biblical grounds to apply the Sabbath law to both the seventh day and the first day "of the week" in a levitical reckoning of the month and months.

Since, the first day of the week is given more prominence in the feasts and reckoning of the monthly calendar and since the feasts are TYPES of NEW COVENANT applications then it is not contrary to either the OLD or NEW covenant for the first day of the week to take the prominence in connection with the NEW covenant.

Colossians 2:16 tells us that the whole OLD COVENANT Levitical plural "SABBATHS" or the Levitical sabbatical cycle has been done away with then we do not observe Leviticus 23 and these feasts nor do we observe the Old Covenant Sabbath Levitical restrictions.

What we observe under the NEW COVENANT is a Sabbath free from legalism but a sabbath dedicated to the Lord = "the Lord's day" - wherein it is "made" (Psa. 118:24) to be observed "in spirit" {We will rejoice and be glad in it} set apart for worship in spirit and in truth to do the WORKS of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Jewish month of Tishri was the SEVENTH month of the ecclesiastical year and at the same time the FIRST month of the civil year.

The Sabbath was the SEVENTH day following six working days but at the same time was the FIRST day preceding six working days.

In the Levitical Feast months the Sabbath was equally applied to the SEVENTH day cycle as well as the FIRST day cycle in a month.

The SEVENTH day cycle characterizes the old creation, old covenant and Israel and finds its fulfillment in the SEVENTH millennium. The first day cylce characterizes the new creation in Christ, the new covenant and all the elect of God and finds its fulfillment in the EIGHTH or ETERNAL day following the SEVENTH millennium.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No, Dr Walter, I for one, have not missed out on anything you are here actually, saying; not even on what you are here saying without, saying; I have seen your scheming from far off.

Here is how you mislead with holy words,

“The work of Christ ("he" - v. 10) is commemorated by a
Sabbath day observance just as the work of God was commemorated by a Sabbath day observance but a BETTER Sabbath day observance as the work of Christ is what will obtain the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath - perfect sinless rest between God and all creation - it is that rest that is YET FUTURE (v. 11) and that is why there "remaineth a sabbath observance for the people of God" (v. 9 "sabbatismos" rather than "pauo" - vv. 1-8)”


“…_a_ Sabbath day observance” which in fact was THE observance namely by God at both the creation in Christ and the fulfilment OF “The, Seventh Day” : THE, Sabbath : OF the LORD GOD” in Christ and through Christ, yesterday, today, and, tomorrow, forever, the same— which you, now, and here, despite not saying it in so many words, FORCE, to mean the First Day of the week and SUN’S-day THROUGH CORRUPTION with the most unobtrusive and indefinite of articles, the word, ‘a’, enslaving it under your dominion of mind bending.

But that is nothing compared to your corruption of the core and essence of God’s Word, because here “The work of Christ ("he" - v. 10) is commemorated by a Sabbath day observance just as the work of God was commemorated by a Sabbath day observance but a BETTER Sabbath day observance as the work of Christ is what will obtain the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath - perfect sinless rest between God and all creation - it is that rest that is YET FUTURE (v. 11) and that is why there "remaineth a sabbath observance for the people of God" (v. 9 "sabbatismos" rather than "pauo" - vv. 1-8)”…, is how you mislead people with sacred words to believe “the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath” was NOT “actually … the work of God” of the “perfect sinless rest between God and all creation” “obtain(ed by) the actual fulfillment seen in” CHRIST, PURELY BECAUSE YOU PROFESS IT IN ITS FULFILMENT IN CHRIST, NO LONGER IS THE _Seventh Day Sabbath_, but the First Day of the week which you PROFESS is that “BETTER Sabbath day” of your deceit.

You are teaching “the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath” is in OPPOSITION with Christ’s obtainment of the “perfect sinless rest between God and all creation”. You are teaching “the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath” has NOT been availed in Christ or by Christ in either “the first creational Sabbath” OR in “the actual fulfilment” in and through _HIMSELF_, of the “perfect sinless rest between God and all creation”. You place CHRIST’S ‘obtainment’ and “actual fulfillment” of a “perfect sinless rest between God and all creation” in opposition with AND short of AND inferior to BOTH the “Sabbath day” “seen” and “commemorated” and “observed” “in the first creational Sabbath”, AND, “a BETTER Sabbath day” which you, profess “is that rest that is YET FUTURE” but which AT PRESENT ALREADY HAS BEEN SUNDAY. To call a spade a spade!

You even are so fearless of God, you say, you write, you argue, “The work of Christ is commemorated by a Sabbath day … that … there "remaineth … for the people of God" (v. 9 "sabbatismos" rather than "pauo" - vv. 1-8),” WHICH IS NOT the Sabbath Day or “a sabbath observance for the people of God”, but, which is YOUR, ‘Sunday’— PURE, IDOLATRY! Idolatry because it is YOUR, PREFERMENT above and over God’s, Word of “The Seventh, Day”, “_GOD_, thus concerning, did speak … there for the People of God remains a keeping of the SABBATH DAY.” Hebrews 4:4.

 

[Dr. Walter]

To those who do not have a bias, it should be obvious that the Sabbath in Genesis 2 commemorates a creation that has now been defiled by sin. The Sabbath rest commemorated a creation that God could say was "very good." It is no longer very good. Redemption by Christ is a greater work in that it is the basis for ushering in a NEW creation that can never be defiled by sin and thus is a BETTER creation with a BETTER day that commemorates that work.

The Old creation has gone from a sinless undefiled creation to a fallen creation and thus the seventh day commemorates an INFERIOR creation, thus an INFERIOR work of God as that work of God could be defiled by sin. However, the Sabbath that commemorates the work of Christ commemorates a GREATER work because it obtains a GREATER creation by God wherein sin can never defile it. It is just that simple.

However, your blinded by a false doctrine and simple things are beyond your grasp.

 

[Chowmah]

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

On what day was John "in the Spirit"? The Greek phrase cannot be made to mean "the day of the Lord" as there is a complete distinct difference in wording between the two in the Greek language.

Well REV.1 is describing the Day of the Lord. Seems everytime someone wishes to change the Word of God they go to the greek. Let scripture interpret scripture and not someones interpretation of the greek.

REV.1 [7] Behold, HE COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of THE EARTH SHALL WAIL because of him. Even so, Amen.[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.[10] I was in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a GREAT VOICE, as of A TRUMPET,

he cometh with clouds - of a trumpet - the Lord's day - a great voice - the earth shall wail

ZEPH.1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall CRY THERE BITTERLY.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness,[16] A day of THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers

a day of clouds - of the trumpet - The great day of the LORD - even the voice - man shall cry there bitterly

See how these two scriptures are speaking of the same exact event. Pretty simple to see now that the Lords day is not sunday but another way to say the Day of the Lord. So unless you believe there will 2 distinct events which will include Him coming in the clouds, with trumpet, with voice, in which men shall weep....you will know Rev.1 is descibing the Day of the Lord

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well REV.1 is describing the Day of the Lord. Seems everytime someone wishes to change the Word of God they go to the greek. Let scripture interpret scripture and not someones interpretation of the greek.

REV.1 [7] Behold, HE COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of THE EARTH SHALL WAIL because of him. Even so, Amen.[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.[10] I was in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a GREAT VOICE, as of A TRUMPET,

he cometh with clouds - of a trumpet - the Lord's day - a great voice - the earth shall wail

ZEPH.1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall CRY THERE BITTERLY.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness,[16] A day of THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers

a day of clouds - of the trumpet - The great day of the LORD - even the voice - man shall cry there bitterly

See how these two scriptures are speaking of the same exact event. Pretty simple to see now that the Lords day is not sunday but another way to say the Day of the Lord. So unless you believe there will 2 distinct events which will include Him coming in the clouds, with trumpet, with voice, in which men shall weep....you will know Rev.1 is descibing the Day of the Lord

If you wish to remain ignorant then remain ignorant. However, even the English translation will not support your interpretation. Even the English wording "the day of the Lord" and "the Lord's day" are different. Note the preposition "on" thus demanding the presence of "the Lord's day" when speaking and writing verse 10. However, all references you give and all references the Bible gives concerning "the day of the Lord" describe it as something yet future not present. So, why don't you allow scripture to interpret scripture instead of forcing Revelation 1:10 to mean something it cannot possibly mean in English and is certainly impossible in the Greek text????????? I will tell you why! Because of your false doctrine that is why.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Here is how you mislead with holy words,

“The work of Christ ("he" - v. 10) is commemorated by a
Sabbath day observance just as the work of God was commemorated by a Sabbath day observance but a BETTER Sabbath day observance as the work of Christ is what will obtain the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath - perfect sinless rest between God and all creation - it is that rest that is YET FUTURE (v. 11) and that is why there "remaineth a sabbath observance for the people of God" (v. 9 "sabbatismos" rather than "pauo" - vv. 1-8)”

There is not one single word stated above that is misleading! Not one! You were unable to point out any error. All you could do was complain.

despite not saying it in so many words, FORCE, to mean the First Day of the week and SUN’S-day THROUGH CORRUPTION with the most unobtrusive and indefinite of articles, the word, ‘a’, enslaving it under your dominion of mind bending.

The fact is that the Sabbath law is applied to many days other than the "seventh" day in Leviticus 23 and is applied to greater periods of time (year) in Levitius 23. YOU CANNOT RESTRICT THE SABBATH APPLICATION TO SOMETHING NARROWER THAN GOD'S OWN APPLICATION OF THE SABBATH LAW and God applies it far wider than to the "seventh" day of the week and far wider than the 24 hour day.

it is that rest that is YET FUTURE (v. 11) and that is why there "remaineth a sabbath observance for the people of God" (v. 9 "sabbatismos" rather than "pauo" - vv. 1-8)[/B]”…, is how you mislead people with sacred words to believe “the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath” was NOT “actually … the work of God” of the “perfect sinless rest between God and all creation” “obtain(ed by) the actual fulfillment seen in” CHRIST, PURELY BECAUSE YOU PROFESS IT IN ITS FULFILMENT IN CHRIST, NO LONGER IS THE _Seventh Day Sabbath_, but the First Day of the week which you PROFESS is that “BETTER Sabbath day” of your deceit.

I never said that the first work of creation was not the work of God! I never said that this first creative work was not commemorated by the seventh day Sabbath. What I said is that this first creative work of God commemorated by the Seventh day sabbath was an INFERIOR work to the greater redemptive work of God in Christ that ushers in a SUPERIOR WORK of creation commemorated by a SUPERIOR Sabbath observance.

You are observering "SATURN-day" as did the Jews in commemoration of a work that has been corrupted by sin and will be destroyed by fire at the end of the SEVENTH millennium. You are observing the Sabbath of the OLD Covenant we are observing the Sabbath of the NEW covenant. You have brought yourself under the bondage of the Levitical Law and its Sabbath administrations we are free from the Leviticual Sabbath observations as our Sabbath observance is an observation of worship in spirit and in truth with rejoicing and gladness "IN IT" (Psa. 118:24) doing the "work of the Lord" separated by abstaining from self-centered works (Isa. 58:13). You are a legalist that rejects the New Covenant but like the SDA puts people back under its LEVITICAL bondage and regulations that govern the Jewish Sabbath or Seventh day "of the week" Sabbath.

You are teaching “the actual fulfillment seen in the first creational Sabbath” is in OPPOSITION with Christ’s obtainment of the “perfect sinless rest between God and all creation”.

The first Sabbath commemorated a sinless creation where continuance as a sinless creation depended upon WORKS not grace. Grace and mercy have reference only to redemption of sinners and Adam was no sinner in the Garden as he had not yet fallen when God established the Sabbath. Adam's continuation in harmony with the Sabbath rest depended upon PERSONAL OBEDIENCE/WORKS not grace and with his fall all of that creation that the Sabbath memoralized fell into sin and was corrupted by sin. The first Sabbath and the first creation have nothing to do with grace, nothing to do with mercy, nothing to do with redemption but with a sinless state UNDER WORKS.

The finished redemptive work of Christ is the basis for ushering in a NEW creation based upon GRACE without works and thus is a SUPERIOR creation as it is sustained by GRACE without works wherein NO SIN can ever defile it. It is a SUPERIOR work of God due to GRACE and is the eternal EIGHTH day which is commemorated by a SUPERIOR EIGHTH day Sabbath (Heb. 4:9-10). That "rest" which all the people of God will enter is yet FUTURE just as the NEW CREATION is yet future and the redemption of Christ is completed in the elect in spirit, soul and body YET IN THE FUTURE as they have not been freed completely from the PRESENCE of sin and won't be until they enter that NEW CREATION yet future.

You are a legalist, and your SATURN-day worship is the OLD Covenant APPLICATION to the Jewish people. The NEW covenant application is seen in the administrative type of the Feasts in Leviticus 23,25 where consistently the fourth commandment application by God is the FIRST/EIGHTH day Sabbath. If you observe the OLD covenant application of the fourth commandment you must observe the LEVITICAL restrictions upon that application.

The NEW Covenant application of the fouth commandment is FREE from all the Levitical Sabbatical regulations and forms found under the Law. It is FREE from all forms of legalism. It is to be observed in rejoicing and gladness (Psa. 118:24) as a day separated from all other days as the day of public worship and in DOING THE WORK of God - The "Lord's Day."

 

[Chowmah]

If you wish to remain ignorant then remain ignorant. However, even the English translation will not support your interpretation. Even the English wording "the day of the Lord" and "the Lord's day" are different. Note the preposition "on" thus demanding the presence of "the Lord's day" when speaking and writing verse 10. However, all references you give and all references the Bible gives concerning "the day of the Lord" describe it as something yet future not present. So, why don't you allow scripture to interpret scripture instead of forcing Revelation 1:10 to mean something it cannot possibly mean in English and is certainly impossible in the Greek text????????? I will tell you why! Because of your false doctrine that is why.

So unless you believe there will 2 distinct events which will include Him coming in the clouds, with trumpet, with voice, in which men shall weep.

So tell me good DR. what other coming day will include Him coming in the clouds, with trumpet, with voice, in which men shall weep. We know that these events happen on the Day of the Lord according to Zeph.1. But you claim they are to happen also on another day. Although i cant imagine Jesus returning in the clouds twice but thats what you claim. So tell me more about this day or ill just remain an ignorant fool. Show me scriptures about this hidden day and please dont try to do a song and dance by telling me your interpretation of the greek. I will not fall for that amateurish deception