The Sabbath by Christ in Isaiah

[DHK]

The Sabbath principle is six days of work and the seventh day for rest. This is established in the seven days of creation at the beginning of the world. There is no "week" or first, second....seventh day "of the week" in the creation account as the "week" is a later term used to count a segment of days based upon the seven creation days.

What is the definition of a week? A group of seven, especially a group of seven days, however it could be a group of seven months or even years. Thus there is a week used in Genesis 2. This cannot be denied. There are seven days--one week. Your logic is somewhat like this: Because the word trinity is not in the Bible, we must deny it. It is akin to J.W. reasoning.

Otherwise what you have posted here I can agree with: the principle is six days of work and the seventh day of rest.

One need not go any farther into Scripture. The rest of Scripture deals with the Sabbath Day as it relates to the nation of Israel. It specifically tells us that the Sabbath Day is a sign between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. It is not given to the Gentile believers as a command anywhere in the NT. You have failed over and over again to point to any command. We only can glean this one principle from Genesis: that man should rest one day out of seven, and even that is not in the form of a command.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What is the definition of a week? A group of seven, especially a group of seven days, however it could be a group of seven months or even years. Thus there is a week used in Genesis 2. This cannot be denied. There are seven days--one week. Your logic is somewhat like this: Because the word trinity is not in the Bible, we must deny it. It is akin to J.W. reasoning.

Otherwise what you have posted here I can agree with: the principle is six days of work and the seventh day of rest.

One need not go any farther into Scripture. The rest of Scripture deals with the Sabbath Day as it relates to the nation of Israel. It specifically tells us that the Sabbath Day is a sign between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. It is not given to the Gentile believers as a command anywhere in the NT. You have failed over and over again to point to any command. We only can glean this one principle from Genesis: that man should rest one day out of seven, and even that is not in the form of a command.

The Hebrew has a term translated "week" and it is not used in connection with the Genesis Sabbath or the giving of the fourth commandment. You got it right when you said it refers to a group of seven, days or years. The fact that God's own application of the Sabbath law EXCEEDS the boundaries of any particular day "of the week" proves you cannot RESTRICT the fourth commandment application to something less than God's own application. This is exactly what you do when you demand it must be restricted to any particular day "of the week"!

This is not a matter of my "logic" but a matter of God's own explicit application of the Sabbath law. The SDA restricts it to a 24 hour "day" and to the "week" of 24 hour periods. God does not!

Now, it certainly INCLUDES such an application but it is not CONFINED to such an application.

You still fail to see the New Covenant TYPIFIED in the feasts in connection with the prominence of a "first day" of the week application. You fail to see the fourth commandment application in the Old as well as the New Covenant. You fail to see that Mark 2:27-28 in context has the Creation institution of the Sabbath in view and "the man" - or all mankind consisting in Adam in view. You still fail to see that Old Testament saints entered into spiritual rest "in Christ" just as much as we do at the point of faith in the gospel but yet they observed the external token of that rest because the rest "in Christ" FREE FROM THE PRESENCE of sin (as in the creation Sabbath) is not yet obtained until we enter into the NEW CREATION.

You are still fighting the fourth commandment under the OLD covenant application and blind to the New covenant application that is free from all the levitical regulations and restrictions.

 

[DHK]

The Hebrew has a term translated "week" and it is not used in connection with the Genesis Sabbath or the giving of the fourth commandment. You got it right when you said it refers to a group of seven, days or years.

And creation was a group of seven; seven days, or one week. It doesn't have to be spelled out for you.

The fact that God's own application of the Sabbath law EXCEEDS the boundaries of any particular day "of the week" proves you cannot RESTRICT the fourth commandment application to something less than God's own application. This is exactly what you do when you demand it must be restricted to any particular day "of the week"!

The Lord in His Word restricted the meaning of it; I didn't.
Secondly words have meanings. Deal with it.

This is not a matter of my "logic" but a matter of God's own explicit application of the Sabbath law. The SDA restricts it to a 24 hour "day" and to the "week" of 24 hour periods. God does not!

By my count He does. And, unless you are an evolutionist you ought to believe the same way. Evolution and Creation do not mix.

Now, it certainly INCLUDES such an application but it is not CONFINED to such an application.

Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of the word?

You still fail to see the New Covenant TYPIFIED in the feasts in connection with the prominence of a "first day" of the week application.

I take the Bible literally. I do not allegorize it like the SDA and other cults. Once you start doing that you can make the Bible say anything you want. Look at some of the theology threads dealing with full preterism which have allegorized the return of Christ to mean that he has already come in 70 A.D., but only with a "spiritual" body. Fascinating isn't it? You can make the Bible say anything you want if you don't take it literally, and in this case you are the guilty one, not taking it literally.

You fail to see the fourth commandment application in the Old as well as the New Covenant. You fail to see that Mark 2:27-28 in context has the Creation institution of the Sabbath in view and "the man" - or all mankind consisting in Adam in view.

I fail to see it because it is not there. Again more allegorization. Do me a favor. In a post by itself, take Mark 2:27-28 and expound the text. What is its real meaning, and include the context.

You still fail to see that Old Testament saints entered into spiritual rest "in Christ" just as much as we do at the point of faith in the gospel but yet they observed the external token of that rest because the rest "in Christ" FREE FROM THE PRESENCE of sin (as in the creation Sabbath) is not yet obtained until we enter into the NEW CREATION.

You cannot see that which is not there. More allegorization.

You are still fighting the fourth commandment under the OLD covenant application and blind to the New covenant application that is free from all the levitical regulations and restrictions.

The fourth commandment is clearly given to the nation of Israel as a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and Israel, and for their generations forever. God is immutable. He changes not. You do not accept this truth. You have rejected the truths of an unchangeable God who has declared his truth and purposes so very clearly in Exodus 31. I can only wonder why that would be? But I don't know. There is not a single verse in the Bible where any believer is commanded to keep the Sabbath Day; not even one. And to this day you have not been able to show me one.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Lord in His Word restricted the meaning of it; I didn't.

This is where you are wrong! The Lord did not restrict the Sabbath law to the seventh day "of the week." He never even used the term "week" in either Genesis or the giving of the fourth commandments anywhere in Scripture. Obviously in Leviticus 23 in the very structure of the months it INCLUDES application to the seventh day "of the week" but the very same structure demands it EXCEEDS that application to not only other days of the week in such a monthly structure but even to years that are not the "seventh" but the "first." So you are entirely wrong here in your restrictive rule. You are siding with the SDA here and opposing the plain and explicit and plentiful scriptures on this point.


Just because a law is applicable to the seventh day of the week does not mean it is restricted to the seventh day of the week and when God applies it to YEARS and to other days of the month that cannot be construed in any possible manner to be the "seventh" much less the seventh day "of the week" you know your rule of interpretation is wrong! You are wrong at this very point and this point is critical to your whole argument and interpretation of the fourth commandment.

 

[DHK]

I am not wrong. You do not want to admit that I am not wrong.
Definition of week = group of seven.
Creation = seven days.
Sabbath = seventh day, the day which God rested.
Today's calendar the seventh day is Saturday and the first day of the week is Sunday, and therefore the Sabbath is always on Saturday, the sixth day of the week.
This is all very simple logic following very simple definitions.

Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day--a command given to the nation of Israel.
Notice that it is the Sabbath Day, one day out of seven. It is the day that God rested. It was given only to the nation of Israel as a command.
It was never given as a command to the Gentile believer.

If you allegorize the Bible to say otherwise, why not allegorize the atonement too, and say that it was really Satan who atoned for our sins. That is what others believe.

 

[Dr. Walter]

.

By my count He does. And, unless you are an evolutionist you ought to believe the same way. Evolution and Creation do not mix.

Then you better go back to school and learn to count again. Nothing more is given in the creation account and in the fourth commandment than a set of seven days. The prinicple is one day in seven. You can start it wherever you please and it will work. Start it on Tuesday and it will work. Start it on Saturday and it will work.

The idea of the seventh day "of the week" occurring on Saturday is not found in God's word. It is found in the JEWISH application of the Sabbath law to the monthly calender given in Leviticus 23 in correspondence with the latter Babylonian calendar names for such days in a month. This is not wrong UNLESS you restrict it to SATURDAY because the very same Levitical monthly calendar that provides such a legitimate application to the seventh day "of the week" also applies it to the "first" day of the week in the same monthly calendar. The rule is that the Sabbath law is INCLUSIVE to such an application but is not restricted to such an application as God applies it beyond the seventh day of the week in the very same monthly calendar.

Hence the Jews preferred to apply the fourth commandment to the seventh day "of the week" in their Jewish monthly calendar but were wrong in restricting it to that day "of the week" as the Bible makes no such restriction.

The very same Biblical basis for application to the seventh day "of the week" in the Jewish monthly calendar also gives legitmate application to the first day "of the week" in the same Jewish monthly calendar. Neither violate the one day in seven prinicple because if it did then God could not have applied it to any other day in the monthly calendar found in Leviticus 23 nor could he applied it to "years" much less the "fiftieth" day (Pentecost) or "fiftieth" year (year of Jubilee).

You need to think about what I said above carefully before responding.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I take the Bible literally. I do not allegorize it like the SDA and other cults. Once you start doing that you can make the Bible say anything you want. Look at some of the theology threads dealing with full preterism which have allegorized the return of Christ to mean that he has already come in 70 A.D., but only with a "spiritual" body. Fascinating isn't it? You can make the Bible say anything you want if you don't take it literally, and in this case you are the guilty one, not taking it literally.

Great! Then how do you interpret the passover feast? Literally or do you see something beyond the literal lamb being slain and the literaly supper???

Great! Then how do you interpret the feast of Pentecost? Literally or do you see something beyond the literal harvest being gathered?

Great! Then how do you interpret the year of Jubilee? Literally or do you seen something beyond the literal activies and time of this event? Will you argue that God had no more intent in all the above literal feasts and events than what you literally read????

What is my point? The New Covenant is clearly and unmistakenly foreshadowed in all these LITERAL feasts. Hence, there is no grounds to charge me with allegorization of what is clearly the intent of God behind these literal feasts - type of the New Covenant and the provision in Christ.

There is no allegorization in seeing that in all these feasts it is the "first" day Sabbath that is prominent rather than the 7th, 15th, 21st or 28th day Sabbath. There is no allegorization in seeing a literal application of the sabbath law to other days of the month, thus other days of the week than the seventh day of the week.

I fail to see it because it is not there. Again more allegorization. Do me a favor. In a post by itself, take Mark 2:27-28 and expound the text. What is its real meaning, and include the context.

You cannot see that which is not there. More allegorization.

The fourth commandment is clearly given to the nation of Israel as a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and Israel, and for their generations forever. God is immutable. He changes not. You do not accept this truth. You have rejected the truths of an unchangeable God who has declared his truth and purposes so very clearly in Exodus 31. I can only wonder why that would be? But I don't know. There is not a single verse in the Bible where any believer is commanded to keep the Sabbath Day; not even one. And to this day you have not been able to show me one.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am not wrong. You do not want to admit that I am not wrong.
Definition of week = group of seven.
Creation = seven days.
Sabbath = seventh day, the day which God rested.
Today's calendar the seventh day is Saturday and the first day of the week is Sunday, and therefore the Sabbath is always on Saturday, the sixth day of the week.
This is all very simple logic following very simple definitions.

Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day--a command given to the nation of Israel.
Notice that it is the Sabbath Day, one day out of seven. It is the day that God rested. It was given only to the nation of Israel as a command.
It was never given as a command to the Gentile believer.

If you allegorize the Bible to say otherwise, why not allegorize the atonement too, and say that it was really Satan who atoned for our sins. That is what others believe.

You are playing the role of a politician and debater but not of a true exegete. You avoid the evidence and issue because you cannot deal with it objectively.

1. The Sabbath law was not established on our calendar so you are wrong to use that as your starting point above.

2. You restrict the Sabbath application to something less and more narrow than what God applies it! Hence, either you are wrong or God is wrong for applying it beyond YOUR RESTRICTIVE interpretation of His Word.

 

[DHK]

Great! Then how do you interpret the passover feast? Literally or do you see something beyond the literal lamb being slain and the literaly supper???

Great! Then how do you interpret the feast of Pentecost? Literally or do you see something beyond the literal harvest being gathered?

Great! Then how do you interpret the year of Jubilee? Literally or do you seen something beyond the literal activies and time of this event? Will you argue that God had no more intent in all the above literal feasts and events than what you literally read????

What is my point? The New Covenant is clearly and unmistakenly foreshadowed in all these LITERAL feasts. Hence, there is no grounds to charge me with allegorization of what is clearly the intent of God behind these literal feasts - type of the New Covenant and the provision in Christ.

There is no allegorization in seeing that in all these feasts it is the "first" day Sabbath that is prominent rather than the 7th, 15th, 21st or 28th day Sabbath. There is no allegorization in seeing a literal application of the sabbath law to other days of the month, thus other days of the week than the seventh day of the week.

These feasts are not important to me. I don't keep them, as I don't keep the Sabbath. Colossians calls them "shadows." You can keep your "shadows." I have the real thing. I have Christ.

I fail to see it because it is not there. Again more allegorization. Do me a favor. In a post by itself, take Mark 2:27-28 and expound the text. What is its real meaning, and include the context.

You cannot see that which is not there. More allegorization.

The fourth commandment is clearly given to the nation of Israel as a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and Israel, and for their generations forever. God is immutable. He changes not. You do not accept this truth. You have rejected the truths of an unchangeable God who has declared his truth and purposes so very clearly in Exodus 31. I can only wonder why that would be? But I don't know. There is not a single verse in the Bible where any believer is commanded to keep the Sabbath Day; not even one. And to this day you have not been able to show me one.

It is too bad you didn't answer this part of the post.

 

[DHK]

You are playing the role of a politician and debater but not of a true exegete. You avoid the evidence and issue because you cannot deal with it objectively.

1. The Sabbath law was not established on our calendar so you are wrong to use that as your starting point above.

2. You restrict the Sabbath application to something less and more narrow than what God applies it! Hence, either you are wrong or God is wrong for applying it beyond YOUR RESTRICTIVE interpretation of His Word.

We do not live in a void or a vacuum. There must be a calendar to follow. Even the modern day Jew would probably follow the Julian calendar of today. We must have a reference point. God rested the seventh day. The seventh day on our calendar is Saturday, and the first day is Sunday. If you can't understand those basic truths, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

These feasts are not important to me. I don't keep them, as I don't keep the Sabbath. Colossians calls them "shadows." You can keep your "shadows." I have the real thing. I have Christ.

Again, you side step the issue - avoid the issue! You charged me with allegorization but you are not dealing honestly with the evidence I placed before you. Proof? Do you know of any evangelical scholar within your own group that does not teach that the passover is a TYPE of Christ and the New Covenant provision for sin????? Proof? Do you know of any evangelical scholar within your own group that does not teach the design behind all these feast mentioned is NEW COVENANT applications?

Proof? does not 1 Cor 10 explicitly state that even the "rock" and "water" were types of Christ and spiritual things or do you reject even Paul's explicit demands they were more than just LITERAL in regard to intepretation???

I have never denied that you have Christ and I have never claimed that the New Covenant Sabbath replaces Christ.

Your main arguments are not Biblically based and you refuse to deal with the obvious typology in the feasts. All you want to do is repeat vain and empty arguments and for what purpose?????

You are probably more educated than I am, a better scholar, and even a better person - I grant you that. But even I can see you are skirting issues and not being objective with the evidence and arguing just to argue.

 

[Dr. Walter]

We do not live in a void or a vacuum. There must be a calendar to follow. Even the modern day Jew would probably follow the Julian calendar of today. We must have a reference point. God rested the seventh day. The seventh day on our calendar is Saturday, and the first day is Sunday. If you can't understand those basic truths, then I don't know what to tell you.

The Biblical calendar is provided in Leviticus 23 and nowhere else. This calendar ligitimizes a first day of the week Sabbath MORE than the seventh day of the week Sabbath but it allows for both.

The reason it legitimizes the first day of the week more is because the first day of the week Sabbath in the Biblical calendar characterizes those feast that typify NEW COVENANT truths.

 

[DHK]

The Biblical calendar is provided in Leviticus 23 and nowhere else. This calendar ligitimizes a first day of the week Sabbath MORE than the seventh day of the week Sabbath but it allows for both.

The reason it legitimizes the first day of the week more is because the first day of the week Sabbath in the Biblical calendar characterizes those feast that typify NEW COVENANT truths.

Human rationalization is what is taught in the public schools today. Humanism, no absolutes, etc., are concepts that I would not expect from you.
A week is a week is a week--a group of seven days. In our week the seventh day is Saturday, and it is the day that Jews all over the world (our city included) go to the synagogue to worship, and to keep holy the sabbath day.

Christians worship any day they like. A good percentage of them go to church on Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ, although there is no command for them to do so. It is not the sabbath day. As far as I am concerned it is not a day of rest. It is the busiest day of the week, the day in which I work the most. There is more to do on a Sunday then on any other day of the week, so it is not a day of rest. As for worship, most of my worship is done at home (Mat.6:6,7) as the Lord commanded, when I am alone with my Father (in secret), away from the public.

Again your allegorization is pitiful.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Human rationalization is what is taught in the public schools today. Humanism, no absolutes, etc., are concepts that I would not expect from you.
A week is a week is a week--a group of seven days. In our week the seventh day is Saturday, and it is the day that Jews all over the world (our city included) go to the synagogue to worship, and to keep holy the sabbath day.

Christians worship any day they like. A good percentage of them go to church on Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ, although there is no command for them to do so. It is not the sabbath day. As far as I am concerned it is not a day of rest. It is the busiest day of the week, the day in which I work the most. There is more to do on a Sunday then on any other day of the week, so it is not a day of rest. As for worship, most of my worship is done at home (Mat.6:6,7) as the Lord commanded, when I am alone with my Father (in secret), away from the public.

Again your allegorization is pitiful.

My allegorization is established on Biblical precedent and the proof for that is you are unable to name even one scholar within your own ranks that restricts their interpretation of the passover, Pentecost, year of Jubilee to strict literalism but admit and teach they are Old Testament types of New Testament truths.

You ignore the Biblical calendar and you ignore God's own application of the Sabbath law.

You flee to Seventh Day Adventist logic and modern non-Biblical calendars as your only refuge.

I can give you much more proof right out of the new testament of the New Covenant Sabbath day observance. Mark 16:2 versus Mark 16:9 in the Greek text supports the first day of the week as the New Covenant Sabbath. Note the different words and number used between the two verses in the Greek text. The normal designation for the first day of the week is used in Mark 16:2 but a special phrase is used in verse 9. The Greek term "proto" rather than the common "mia" is used and this term always refers to the "first in a series" and the singular "sabbatou" rather than the command plural "sabbatwn" is used which is always used in majority text for the fourth commandment Sabbath. The resultant meaning "The first Sabbath in a series."

However, as I stated when you wanted to start this argument, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You have a position to defend and you have defended as good as anyone can defend it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again your allegorization is pitiful.

Is it really? Does not 1 Cor. 5:6-8 provide inspired New Testament precedent to interpret the passover feast in Leviticus 23 beyond its literal boundaries of a literal lamb or is "Christ our passover"? Does not the Bible provide precedent to interpret it to convey in type New Covenant truths?

Does not Acts 2:1 provide inspired New Testament precedent to intepret the feast of Pentecost beyond its literal boundaries but rather ingathering by a gospel harvest?

Does not Acts 3:17-19 provide inspired New Testament precedent to interpret the year of Jubilee beyond its literal boundaries?

If I were a wagering fellow I would wager that you have taught that these all were types of New Covenant truths by divine design!

I have not allegorized anything beyond the Biblical application of these as types of New Covenant truths. My interpretation of the divine application of the Sabbath law within these feasts has been confined within the typology of New Covenant application and truths.

 

[DHK]

However, as I stated when you wanted to start this argument, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You have a position to defend and you have defended as good as anyone can defend it.

You ignore all of history. The Jews all over the world still honor the Sabbath Day on Saturday. I need no other proof than that. With that the argument should be a shut and closed case. It was given to the Jews and their generations forever. They still keep it. They keep it on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. Case closed.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You ignore all of history. The Jews all over the world still honor the Sabbath Day on Saturday. I need no other proof than that. With that the argument should be a shut and closed case. It was given to the Jews and their generations forever. They still keep it. They keep it on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. Case closed.

As you aware the Jewish calendar is a development far beyond the Biblical Calendar given to them by God in the Penteteuch. In the books of Moses God uses numbers not names for the year, month and day. God originates the Jewish religious calendar in Exodus 12:2 and its feasts and Sabbaths in Leviticus 23,25 that form the Biblical calendar.

In this Biblical calendar the lunar 30 day month is followed which is not divisable by seven. However, the seventh day Sabbath is established in this calendar (7th, 14th, 21th, 28th). Hence, the Jewish application of the Seventh day "of the week" Sabbath is Biblical and legitimate.

The Jews went beyond the Biblical calendar and took in the Caananite names for the months and later the Babylonian names for the days of the month and then restricted the Sabbath to the seventh day "of the week" or on Saturday when in fact the Biblical calendar made no such restriction. Indeed, the Biblical calendar allows for the consistent application of the Sabbath law to the 1st, 8th, 15th and 22nd days in every single one of the Calendar Feasts. According to the same development that would establish Sunday as a consistent Sabbath day in the same Biblical calendar. Hence, allowance for the Seventh day of the week Sabbath is Biblical based but restricting it to the seventh day of the week is not Biblical based according to the Biblical calendar given to them by God. Hence, the Jewish model today is a result of the mixture of Biblical calendar, Canaanite and Babylonian ingredients along with TRADITION that goes beyond the Biblical calendar.

The First day "of the week" has as much if not more Biblical basis in the Biblical calendar than does the seventh day "of the week" as the first day of the week characterizes all the feasts of the Jewish religious calendar far more than the seventh day "of the week" Sabbath.

Here is my point - the Jews are correct in recognizing the seventh day of the week Saturday as a legitmate Sabbath day but they are incorrect in restricting it to such. Furthermore, every feast of the Biblical Calendar is a TYPE of the New Covenant and YOU KNOW IT to be true! The seventh day of the week characterizes the OLD COVENANT but the first day of the week Sabbath characterizes every type of the New Covenant within the Biblical calendar as given in Leviticus 23, 25.

We are no longer under the Seventh day of the week Sabbatical cycles (day, month, year) that is the sign of the OLD COVENANT and the nation of Israel. We are under the liberating and blessing of the first day of the week Sabbath that is the sign of the New Covenant both in the pre-cross scriptures and the post-cross scriptures.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ERROR, apologies.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.........................

We are no longer under the Seventh day of the week Sabbatical cycles (day, month, year) .......................

GE:

A contradiction in terms, in logic, in fact, in TRUTH!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'll just mention one wee little corruption with whole array of implications and complications, quoting Dr Walter, ... "(day month season)" ...

But it is no worth commenting on because it does not exist in Scripture.

First show it - ... "(day month season)" ... - in Scripture, before you could expect comment.