The Sabbath by Christ in Isaiah

[HankD]

I understand what Dr Walter is saying...​

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.​

Dr Walter, did you know that the word sabbath in Matthew 28:1 is plural?​

Matthew 11
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.​

HankD​

 

[DHK]

Here is my point - the Jews are correct in recognizing the seventh day of the week Saturday as a legitmate Sabbath day but they are incorrect in restricting it to such. Furthermore, every feast of the Biblical Calendar is a TYPE of the New Covenant and YOU KNOW IT to be true! The seventh day of the week characterizes the OLD COVENANT but the first day of the week Sabbath characterizes every type of the New Covenant within the Biblical calendar as given in Leviticus 23, 25.

Art thou become a teacher of the Jews? Behold, what tribe comest thou from?

We are no longer under the Seventh day of the week Sabbatical cycles (day, month, year) that is the sign of the OLD COVENANT and the nation of Israel. We are under the liberating and blessing of the first day of the week Sabbath that is the sign of the New Covenant both in the pre-cross scriptures and the post-cross scriptures.

We are not under any Sabbath at all--NT or OT. The Sabbath was given to the Jew, and only to the Jew. It is part of THEIR law not ours.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

These feasts are not important to me. I don't keep them, as I don't keep the Sabbath. Colossians calls them "shadows." You can keep your "shadows." I have the real thing. I have Christ.


GE:

So those who believe God’s Sabbath Day don’t have Christ. I see! That is very clear.

And (although he writes it with a capital letter), DHK doesn’t “keep the Sabbath” when every Sunday he congregates with his Congregation. DHK keeps Sundays, and prefers not to call his day of worship a Sabbath, preferring it as it is above the “Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

The Sabbath was the sign of the covenant that they made with Jehovah.


GE:

NO!

The Sabbath was the sign of the Covenant that Jehovah, made, with the house of Judah, NOT “the Jews” “with Jehova”. “The house of Judah” in SPIRITUAL sense, that is, as the tribe of “The Seed”— of Christ! And that HE, Jehovah Christ, would be their God : ever FAITHFUL!

Where have you seen written where you and Fred’s are writing, “the covenant that they … the Jews … made with Jehovah”??

Quote that Text that we can READ it!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

“This is all very simple logic following very simple definitions.
Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath Day--a command given to the nation of Israel.
Notice that it is the Sabbath Day, one day out of seven. It is the day that God rested. It was given only to the nation of Israel as a command. It was never given as a command to the Gentile believer.”


GE:

Yes! It was never given “AS A COMMAND” to ‘the Gentile believer’. It was given to ‘the Gentile believer’ as a FREEDOM and a FEAST OF FREEDOM – his FREEDOM-IN-CHRIST-FEAST. It’s much stronger compulsion than a ‘command’ ever could be.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:

“Definition of week = group of seven.
Creation = seven days.
Sabbath = seventh day, the day which God rested.
Today's calendar the seventh day is Saturday and the first day of the week is Sunday, and therefore the Sabbath is always on Saturday, the sixth day of the week.”


GE:

Not even on “today's calendar” is “the Sabbath … on … the sixth day of the week”. How do you get along through life?! Or do you exist in your own dream-world? I thought you were a sober person.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have been a spectator of a grand fight like between Mohammed Ali and Joe Frazier couldn’t match… for free!
It surprised me greatly neither sparring partner could fathom where his opponent’s weak spots lie.
They slugged it out, one for you, same for you… no surprizes. So tiresome one must admire them they didn’t collapse the two of them. Brave men. Don’t underestimate the perseverance of the saints! As I said before – of DHK’s arguments – they don’t lack length. I should have said it of Dr Walter’s, though! And ‘consistency’— 200% better than ever both of them!

My wife tells me – she’s a nurse – that human endurance can easily take 11 days without food; more difficult without water, but sure death without sleep!
Now I forgot the ‘application’ again! Eish!!
But their WAS an ‘application’…. it will come back eventually… I hope.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I understand what Dr Walter is saying...​

.............

GE:

Lucky man!!

Or is it brilliant man!!?

What is it you understand what Dr Walter is saying?

Mind sharing it with me (us)?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

i understand what dr walter is saying...​

matthew 28:1 in the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came mary magdalene and the other mary to see the sepulchre.​

dr walter, did you know that the word sabbath in matthew 28:1 is plural?​

........................

ge:

Haai nooit!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

..............

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
..............​

GE:

Dear HankD, did you know "a rest to the people of God" does NOT EXIST in Hebrews 4:9?

You did?

You didn't?!

WOW!!!

But you knew the word 'sabbath' in Greek is in the Plural?

Well, tell us all, please!
​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Re: Dr Walter,
".... God originates the Jewish religious calendar in Exodus 12:2 and its feasts and Sabbaths in Leviticus 23,25 that form the Biblical calendar.
In this Biblical calendar the lunar 30 day month is followed which is not divisable by seven. However, the seventh day Sabbath is established in this calendar (7th, 14th, 21th, 28th). Hence, the Jewish application of the Seventh day "of the week" Sabbath is Biblical and legitimate. "

GE:

Now it has become high time you are made short thrift of, Dr Walter, handing out your fakes for Gospel truth to the ignorant left and right.

"the seventh day Sabbath is established in this calendar ..." FALSE!

"the seventh day Sabbath ... established IN THIS CALENDAR" : "7th, 14th, 21th, 28th" ... FALSE!!

The "14th" "IN THIS CALENDAR" of the First Month, "the seventh day Sabbath" : FALSE!!!

The "Jewish", "application of the Seventh day "of the week" Sabbath is Biblical and legitimate" : FALSE!!!!

"God originates the Jewish religious calendar in Exodus 12:2 " : FALSE!

".... God originates the Jewish religious calendar in Exodus 12:2 and its feasts and Sabbaths in Leviticus 23,25" : FALSE!!

Dr Walter, you do not say A THING THAT IS NOT FALSE!

 

[DHK]

DHK:

These feasts are not important to me. I don't keep them, as I don't keep the Sabbath. Colossians calls them "shadows." You can keep your "shadows." I have the real thing. I have Christ.


GE:

So those who believe God’s Sabbath Day don’t have Christ. I see! That is very clear.

And (although he writes it with a capital letter), DHK doesn’t “keep the Sabbath” when every Sunday he congregates with his Congregation. DHK keeps Sundays, and prefers not to call his day of worship a Sabbath, preferring it as it is above the “Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”

You presume too much GE.
I am a missionary. I go to more than one congregation because not all the congregations have a pastor. One of them meets on Monday, another on Tuesday, another on Friday, another on Sunday, and so on. The day doesn't matter. The people matter. The people are the church. The day doesn't matter; the fact that the people gather matters. The fact that they have the opportunity to gather matters. When they gather it is under threat of persecution. Mostly it is in homes. When they do have a building it often is burned down. They face great persecution. You argue over a silly day. They contend for the faith in face of great persecution. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

 

[HankD]

GE:

Dear HankD, did you know "a rest to the people of God" does NOT EXIST in Hebrews 4:9?

You did?

You didn't?!

WOW!!!

But you knew the word 'sabbath' in Greek is in the Plural?

Well, tell us all, please!

What is you want me to tell you Gerhard?

Are you asking if I knew that the English phrase "a rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is the word sabbitismos in Koine.
Yes and "rest" is a proper translation in context.

Friberg Greek Lexicon:
04629 sabbatismoj( ou/(o` a period of rest, a sabbath rest; fig. in Hebrews 4.9 as a state of spiritual rest entered into by a commitment made in faith.

UBS
05379 sabbatismoj a Sabbath day's rest

Louw-Nida Lexicon
67.185 sabbatismoj, ou/ m: (derivative of sabbaton, 67.184) a special religiously significant period for rest and worship - '
a Sabbath rest, a period of rest. 'avpolei,petai sabbatismo.j tw|law tou/qeou' there still remains for God's people a period of rest' Hebrews 4.9.

The "rest" (or Sabbath) of Hebrews 4 is a state of being - in Christ.
It is 24/7. Christ Himself is the Sabbath Rest. The Hebrew Sabbath was a shadow, He is the fulfilment.

Matthew 11

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

HankD

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...............

Are you asking if I knew that the English phrase "a rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is the word sabbitismos in Koine.
Yes and "rest" is a proper translation in context.

..................................[/LEFT]
/QUOTE]

GE:

Show me an instance where "in context" the "proper translation" of 'sabbatismos' is 'rest', and I'll show you where-EVER : the "proper translation" of 'sabbatismos' is "A KEEPING, OF THE SABBATH, _DAY_".

You do NOT have as many as ONE SINGLE example to support your UNTRUE, claim, dear HankD!

Then what a confused and confusing thinker, in view of it he uses the word 'katapausis' EIGHT times without exception for the concept of "rest", must the writer of Hebrews have been for having used the word 'sabbatismos' all of a sudden for the same concept. In other, simple, words, YOU, are taking a LONG chance that requires no extraordinary intelligence to perceive.

And try conceive the sense of this, IN CONTEXT! :
"If Jesus had given them REST ... a 'rest' THEREFORE remains to be entered..." which is the VERY DENIAL of the saving truth "Jesus HAD given" the People of God FULL and FINAL, "REST" and "God would NOT after these things" --- of the "rest", "Jesus had given them" --- "speak of another day of opportunity of salvation"!


And try conceive the logic of this, "IN CONTEXT"! :
“… a ‘rest’ remains … He having entered into his own ‘rest’…” which AGAIN, would be the DENIAL of the fact that Jesus DID enter into his own ‘rest’ absolutely.

There is only one POSSIBLE and "proper translation" of 'sabbatismos' in Hebrews 4:8,9,10, and that is the consistent, usual and literal-as-possible TRANS-LATION with "a keeping of the Sabbath Day" : "BECAUSE ('ara') Jesus HAD, given them rest".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Fred’sWife:

There is no record in Genesis that God gave the sabbath to man


DHK:

You are correct here.


Dr Walter:

No, He is not correct here. This is a failure to properly intepret and understand Christ's rebuke to the Pharisees in Mark 2:27-28. Christ is clearly claiming to be the Creator who established the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-4 and therefore the proper intepreter of the intent behind the establishing of the Sabbath. Furthermore, Mark 2;27 does not say the Sabbath was "made for the Jew" as no Jews existed when the sabbath "was made." The text explicitly says the Sabbath was made for "the man" or mankind. The Sabbath was not "made" in Exodus 20 but rather the command was to "REMEMBER" the Sabbath and the Sabbath they were to "REMEMBER" was the one "made" by God in Genesis 2:1-4. Hence, any way you look at it, both Mark 2 and Exodus 20 have the Geneis 2:1-4 Sabbath in view. You have no Biblical grounds to separate Geneis 2:1-4 from either Exodus 20 or Mark 2 as there is no other reference point in Scripture for when the Sabbath "was made." The fact that Jesus claims to be the "Lord of the Sabbath" is a direct claim to be the Creator who established it in Genesis 2:1-4.


GE:

The central and real “reference point” of the Sabbath’s beginning or ‘making / creating’, is Christ by resurrection from the dead “In the Sabbath Day”, Matthew 28:1 (Cf. Revelation 3:14). If Genesis agrees, Genesis is proven to be truth BY CHRIST from the New Testament; and seeing Genesis does agree, the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD must on the witness of two witnesses, be believed for real and for remaining valid for the People of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You presume too much GE.
I am a missionary. I go to more than one congregation because not all the congregations have a pastor. One of them meets on Monday, another on Tuesday, another on Friday, another on Sunday, and so on. The day doesn't matter. The people matter. The people are the church. The day doesn't matter; the fact that the people gather matters. The fact that they have the opportunity to gather matters. When they gather it is under threat of persecution. Mostly it is in homes. When they do have a building it often is burned down. They face great persecution. You argue over a silly day. They contend for the faith in face of great persecution. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
[/SIZE]

GE:

I am not 'arguing' "over a silly day"; I am contending for the Reformation Principle of Sola Scriptura in the first place, or, in other words, I am contending over the WORD OF GOD versus the audacities and atrocities of mankind exercised daily over, against and upon the Scriptures --- the Scriptures upon which you, DHK, as a missionary, is expected to build the Christian convictions of those whom you labour for so unselfishly and nobly. Don't you think you should treat God's Word with the same nobility and dignity as you regard them, instead of speaking of GOD'S Word "thus concerning the Seventh Day" "by the Son”, "unto us", "in these last days", "arguing over a silly day"?


By the way, you should be aware of the persecutions exercised by Christianity, of faithful believers because of their convictions they are basing upon their understanding of the Scriptures EVERY DAY ALL AROUND THE WORLD. "Over a silly day"?! It is THAT attitude that gives rise to savage "victimizing and condemnation", of "the Body of Christ's Own ... eating and drinking of Sabbaths'-feast" IN THIS VERY WORLD of the "kingdom" and "dominion" of the "darkness" of human, humanistic and 'humanitarian' "wisdom" and "philosophy". In other words, the 'world' of pure political greediness SEEN EVERY DAY IN EVERY LAND upon earth where religion as such - no matter which religion - has become the object of worship and motivating factor of intolerance, and force behind persecution. Christianity being NO exception --- speaking of 'SUNDAY'-Christianity.

 

[HankD]

Show me an instance where "in context" the "proper translation" of 'sabbatismos' is 'rest', and I'll show you where-EVER : the "proper translation" of 'sabbatismos' is "A KEEPING, OF THE SABBATH, _DAY_".

You do NOT have as many as ONE SINGLE example to support your UNTRUE, claim, dear HankD!

Then what a confused and confusing thinker, in view of it he uses the word 'katapausis' EIGHT times without exception for the concept of "rest", must the writer of Hebrews have been for having used the word 'sabbatismos' all of a sudden for the same concept. In other, simple, words, YOU, are taking a LONG chance that requires no extraordinary intelligence to perceive.

And try conceive the sense of this, IN CONTEXT! :
"If Jesus had given them REST ... a 'rest' THEREFORE remains to be entered..." which is the VERY DENIAL of the saving truth "Jesus HAD given" the People of God FULL and FINAL, "REST" and "God would NOT after these things" --- of the "rest", "Jesus had given them" --- "speak of another day of opportunity of salvation"!


And try conceive the logic of this, "IN CONTEXT"! :
“… a ‘rest’ remains … He having entered into his own ‘rest’…” which AGAIN, would be the DENIAL of the fact that Jesus DID enter into his own ‘rest’ absolutely.

There is only one POSSIBLE and "proper translation" of 'sabbatismos' in Hebrews 4:8,9,10, and that is the consistent, usual and literal-as-possible TRANS-LATION with "a keeping of the Sabbath Day" : "BECAUSE ('ara') Jesus HAD, given them rest".

Hebrews 4:9 is the only place in the NT (or the Septuagint) in which the word sabbatismos is used.

As you suggest, the context of Hebrews 4 is the key to it's meaning.

I am contending that the structure of the sentence of Hebrews 4:9 is that the people of God must enter into the Sabbath rest of Jesus Christ and cease from the works of the mosaic law which can never provide rest for the weary souls.

Matthew 11

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.​

This is the Sabbath of God, to rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ.​

HankD​

 

[Dr. Walter]

Art thou become a teacher of the Jews? Behold, what tribe comest thou from?

The "Spiritual" tribe

we are not under any Sabbath at all--NT or OT. The Sabbath was given to the Jew, and only to the Jew. It is part of THEIR law not ours.

It is part of the Ten commandments and the Ten commandments are given unto us (2 Cor. 3:3) and the fourth is no more missing than it is from Jesus's account with the Rich Young Ruler. Look at the list of commandments mentioned by Christ in his account of them to the Rich Young Ruler. The fourth is not mentioned does that mean it is not included or do you believe the 4th commandment was already annulled when Jesus spoke to the Rich Young Ruler? My point, is that simply because the 4th commandment is not listed by Paul is no more valid an argument against the fourth being annulled than the 4th not listed by Christ with the Rich young ruler.

Jesus said it was "made for [the] man" while you say it should read "made for [the] Jew]. I will take Christ's version.

I will agree with you in this regard. We are not under the fourth commandment today any more or any less than we are under the other nine.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I understand what Dr Walter is saying...​

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.​

Dr Walter, did you know that the word sabbath in Matthew 28:1 is plural?​

Matthew 11
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.​

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.​

Hank, the plural form is the normal form with "mia" for designating the first day of the week. However, the singular form as found in Mark 16:9 is not normal and that is what I am pointing out. In the majority text the singular form is used for the 4th commandment. The term "proto" instead of "mia" is also abnormal. The two together are strong for the idea "the first Sabbath in a new series."

 

[HankD]

Hank, the plural form is the normal form with "mia" for designating the first day of the week. However, the singular form as found in Mark 16:9 is not normal and that is what I am pointing out. In the majority text the singular form is used for the 4th commandment. The term "proto" instead of "mia" is also abnormal. The two together are strong for the idea "the first Sabbath in a new series."

I agree if the "new" one is not confined to a day of the week.

HankD