THE SABBATH

[Sai]

It was connected in my previous response to John 3:16, and I will even connect it to Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16, and the following:

Mat_1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.​

JESUS is JEHOVAH is my (personal) Salvation., even as "Jesus JEHOVAH" is found in the OT texts also (Exodus 14:13; 2 Chronicles 20:17; Jonah 2:9; Psalms 119:174, &c).

Isa_56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
​

In short, I (personally) trust in His salvation & redemption. By the life and demonstration of Jesus, shedding his blood and life, I have full confidence and trust in God's grace, mercy and justice, in that He always fulfills His word (promises), for His faith is always filled with the fruit of His good works - the everlasting tree of life.

Ok thx.
What does Jesus mean here, in your opinion?


“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

Ok thx.
What does Jesus mean here, in your opinion?


“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now


Joy unspeakable full of glory

Jesus (John 3, in speaking to the Pharisee Nicodemus about salvation) refers to the following event in Moses' day, as a type (past, see also 2 Kings 18:4), in a prophecy (yet future to Jesus and Nicodemus speaking, about Jesus' death on the Cross for Nicodemus (and us all)):

Num 21:4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.​

The serpent in this instance (John 3) refers to Jesus Christ ("even so", as Jesus equates "the serpent" with "the Son of Man" (Daniel 7:13; Matthew 16:13)), who, took upon himself the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), and was "made ... to be sin for us" (2 Corinthians 5:21), and thus become the "propitiation" for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; see also John 3:16).

Thus as the serpent on the pole was looked upon and the people were delivered from the poisonous sting and death which resulted, by merely believing God's word and acting upon it in Moses' day, so too would it be likewise in Jesus' day, when He was lifted up:

Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Joh_12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Zec_12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isa_45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.​

Thus, the devil (the real serpent), satan, and his venom of lies and sin and selfishness began (Romans 16:20) to be crushed (Genesis 3:15) by Jesus Christ at Calvary.

So, in short, Look unto Jesus, the "author (in the sense of one who begins a project, see Luke 14:28) and finisher of our faith" (John 3:15):

Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

 

[Sai]

Jesus (John 3, in speaking to the Pharisee Nicodemus about salvation) refers to the following event in Moses' day, as a type (past, see also 2 Kings 18:4), in a prophecy (yet future to Jesus and Nicodemus speaking, about Jesus' death on the Cross for Nicodemus (and us all)):

Num 21:4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.​

The serpent in this instance (John 3) refers to Jesus Christ ("even so", as Jesus equates "the serpent" with "the Son of Man" (Daniel 7:13; Matthew 16:13)), who, took upon himself the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), and was "made ... to be sin for us" (2 Corinthians 5:21), and thus become the "propitiation" for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; see also John 3:16).

Thus as the serpent on the pole was looked upon and the people were delivered from the poisonous sting and death which resulted, by merely believing God's word and acting upon it in Moses' day, so too would it be likewise in Jesus' day, when He was lifted up:

Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.​

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Joh_12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

Zec_12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isa_45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.​

Thus, the devil (the real serpent), satan, and his venom of lies and sin and selfishness began (Romans 16:20) to be crushed (Genesis 3:15) by Jesus Christ at Calvary.

So, in short, Look unto Jesus, the "author (in the sense of one who begins a project, see Luke 14:28) and finisher of our faith" (John 3:15):

Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

Doesn’t this sound like eternal security to you?
If all the Israelites needed was a look of faith to live then same for us, simply trusting in the object of faith, the penal substitution of the Messiah for sin.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Sai]

Doesn’t this sound like eternal security to you?
If all the Israelites needed was a look of faith to live then same for us, simply trusting in the object of faith, the penal substitution of the Messiah for sin.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

I think we fail to recognize that salvation is not forgiveness nor is it amnesty nor is it a pardon, a debt was created and that debt was paid. When a “Christian” claims that it is possible to lose salvation they are devaluing the redemptive worth of the blood of Christ as sufficient to save.

Sadly most of these people who deny the blood are those who are living in comfort and are at ease from suffering.

I learned of how evil this world truly is when for a period of time I was homeless in la near the greyhound station. You may have driven passed there but to actually walk and live among that scene was very revealing to the worst among us. You may recall Ariel Castro who imprisoned two young girls and impregnated and tortured them for several years yet not only was Castro savable so too are his victims. Salvation for him is only thru propitious action from God. Salvation for these lost daughters is very much also by the payment for sin.

The message to man is not about what we can do for God but it is what God has done for us. To tell these young women to get saved and then live the best they can violates the mind of Christ and is anathema.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

Doesn’t this sound like eternal security to you?

No. It sounds like assurance of deliverance, but even those who were delivered from the sting, later died because of their sin, and unbelief. Belief is the key. The choice God has given to us in grace. We must choose to exercise it in faith.

Just because a person believes at one time and for a time, doesn't mean that they will choose to continue in that way.

Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.​

As it it written:

Deu_30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;​

"Eternal security" is a phrase not found in scripture. It is Calvinistic dogma. If (condition) a person remains, abides, etc in Christ, then they are 'secure', but if they choose to leave that embrace, they are no longer secure. This is why David prayed what he did in Psalms 19 & 51.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Psa_19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.​

Because of David's sins with Bathsheba, Uriah, etc, he was in serious danger of becoming as King Saul (totally lost).

If all the Israelites needed was a look of faith to live then same for us, simply trusting in the object of faith, the penal substitution of the Messiah for sin.

Yes, the look of faith, will save us as surely as it delivered them, as it is written:

Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!​

Yet, it is not a one time 'behold', but a daily, moment by moment grasping, holding onto by faith. That's why the Bible uses the word "believeth" (present ongoing action). Whosoever believeth.

Most of those who were 'delivered' were later destroyed through unbelief:

1Co_10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Num_32:11 Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:​

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

And this is written for our own admonition and learning:

1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

I think we fail to recognize that salvation is not forgiveness nor is it amnesty nor is it a pardon, a debt was created and that debt was paid.

Matthew 18:21-35.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

 

[Sai]

Matthew 18:21-35.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.​

So you believe salvation is by works?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

So you believe salvation is by works?

Tell you what. You can search all of my posts since the beginning of this thread, and every thread I have ever posted on in this forum, and if you find even one such place where I ever said or even intimated such a thing - I'll permanently leave.

 

[Sai]

Tell you what. You can search all of my posts since the beginning of this thread, and every thread I have ever posted on in this forum, and if you find even one such place where I ever said or even intimated such a thing - I'll permanently leave.

Done


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

Done


Joy unspeakable full of glory

You are proving that Jesus taught salvation by works, by posting a picture of Matthew 18, vss 34-35?

 

[Sai]

You are proving that Jesus taught salvation by works, by posting a picture of Matthew 18, vss 34-35?

Isn’t that what you posted and underlined?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

Isn’t that what you posted and underlined?

I posted Matthew 18:34-35 in it's context, with bold underlined portions, but nowhere in Matthew 18 is anything about "salvation by works".

 

[Sai]

I posted Matthew 18:34-35 in it's context, with bold underlined portions, but nowhere in Matthew 18 is anything about "salvation by works".

But why did you post that? I made a statement about eternal security and you posted a passage on merit?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

But why did you post that? I made a statement about eternal security and you posted a passage on merit?

Merit, where did you read that in Matthew 18? The passage is about unforgiveness, which is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.​

Did you see the "evil" to be delivered from? It's unforgiveness. The "tempation" is to be unforgiving, which is not like our Father in Heaven, who forgave (Matthew 18). A Christian, in Christ Jesus, can be "tempted" into this state, and so cease being Christian (Christ-like, in forgiving). What merit? All forgiveness is from God, as a gift of grace, and our forgiveness is born of it, not of ourselves or any merit on our part. It is a simple sharing of what God already provided, or a withholding of it. Salvation is never earned, but it can be lost. Just as a person who receives a gift (not earned), can lose it.

See the following:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.​

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

 

[Sai]

Merit, where did you read that in Matthew 18? The passage is about unforgiveness, which is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.​

Did you see the "evil" to be delivered from? It's unforgiveness. The "tempation" is to be unforgiving, which is not like our Father in Heaven, who forgave (Matthew 18). A Christian, in Christ Jesus, can be "tempted" into this state, and so cease being Christian (Christ-like, in forgiving). What merit? All forgiveness is from God, as a gift of grace, and our forgiveness is born of it, not of ourselves or any merit on our part. It is a simple sharing of what God already provided, or a withholding of it. Salvation is never earned, but it can be lost. Just as a person who receives a gift (not earned), can lose it.

See the following:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.​

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

What a mess.

Firstly, there’s no sin that can not be forgiven. All sins are forgivable. Do we agree on that?


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

What a mess.

Firstly, there’s no sin that can not be forgiven. All sins are forgivable. Do we agree on that?

No.

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

 

[Sai]

No.

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​

Paul was forgiven for this very sin.
That argument just went up in smoke


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Alofa Atu]

Paul was forgiven for this very sin.
That argument just went up in smoke

No. The text (not myself) still stands as truth. Paul was persecuting and blaspheming Jesus Christ:

Act_9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Act_22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Act_26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

1Ti_1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.​

Paul did not blaspheme the Holy Ghost away (as King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14), as Annanias and Sapphira (Acts 5:3)). The Holy Ghost was the one pricking his (Paul's) heart.

You are quite mistaken, and one who denies the plain text of scripture before you.

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:​

 

[Alofa Atu]

This is what happens to those who succumb to the gross error and heresy of OSAS. There is no blaspheming away of the Holy Ghost for them. They think they can never be in danger of hellfire ever again and walk in prideful presumption.

 

[Sai]

No. The text (not myself) still stands as truth. Paul was persecuting and blaspheming Jesus Christ:

Act_9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Act_22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Act_26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

1Ti_1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.​

Paul did not blaspheme the Holy Ghost away (as King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14), as Annanias and Sapphira (Acts 5:3)). The Holy Ghost was the one pricking his (Paul's) heart.

You are quite mistaken, and one who denies the plain text of scripture before you.

Mat_12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:​

Paul’s legal defense for persecution of Jewish believers was based upon the Sanhedrin’s rejection of Jesus’ claim to be the “Son of David” based on demon possession (Mt 12).

How many passages in scripture are there where the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is found?


Joy unspeakable full of glory