The SBC: Poll for Southern Baptists

It is interesting that the Religious Congregations Membership Study has found the more conservative denominational groups to be experiencing the most growth.

http://www.lifewayonline.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=read&articleid=2900

http://www.reporter-news.com/1998/religion/morph1031.html

This in itself does not make the case for who is right or who is wrong; but, in my opinion, it makes a case that conservative churches are far from becoming irrelevant.

[ October 06, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

The holiness is needed for two reasons. 1. -Too many years of Liberal input where no one knows how to discern eveil anymore. 2. "Too" much emphasis on salvation. By that I mean since most SBC churches have done away with Sunday Night Services and Training Union and such few get any real discipleship training. Sunday Morning messages are usually evangelistic because that is when most lost people attend. I tend to preach strong discipleship messages on Sunday Mornings since that is the only time I get to try and discipleship my SMO folks. We still have Sunday Night services. Most adults do not come to Sunday School so no training there. Wednesday Night folks are usually the true disciples so they get some, but that means often I am preaching tot he choir. Most SBC people have salvation down pat, but often have no real clue on other doctrines. Even the Elders in my last church were light on doctrine.

While there are some good people in the BGCT, the group needs to be disfellowshipped. That includes whatever you call the Liberal side in your state as well. As long as we try to hang together for tradition sake nothing good will be accomplished because toomuch energy will be consumed in arguments.

The SBC will have to come a long way to be in the same camp as the IFB. Though the Conservatives are far more Conservative than the BGCT/others like them, they are often far more Liberal that the average IFB.

 

Mr. Honeycutt,

People who don't believe in the Bible are wicked - so who gives a hoot what a bunch of wicked infidel Methodists and Presbyterians or a bunch of bitter old Baptist Infidels who were shown the back door of the SBC think?

To the rest,

Though I'm not SBC, I believe there are multitudes of SBC people who really do believe in the Holy Bible; now that they have made it clear that people who don't are not welcome in their fellowship, they, with all the rest of us need to get back to the business of striving to apply the Bible to their churches.

I see some very grave problems facing the SBC, and these same problems face every other group of real Baptists:

1. The danger of confounding true Biblical conservatism with Protestant Reformation Calvinism.

2. The danger of substituting psychological counseling for authentic Biblical preaching and Holy Spirit transformation.

3. The danger of substituting "how to" programs and advertising campaigns for real Christian living and preaching as the means of evangelism.

4. The danger of equating the Kingdom of God with Americanism and political activism.

Mark Osgatharp

[ October 07, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

Maverick:

I am assuming you have an insider's track into what is going on in SBC life to paint with such broad strokes. If not, please refrain from voicing your opinion as to what is happening in "most" SBC churches and pulpits.

Having been in both the IFB and SBC "camps", I have to admit that I hope the SBC never REVERTS into the IFB camp.

And will you please qualify what you mean when you say SBC conservatives are "far more liberal" than the average IFB?

 

What specifically makes you say that 'the SBC is headed closer and closer to theological and social irrelevance.?' Please, define, in your opinion what exactly is wrong with the SBC today?

I have three specific BF&M s updated on my website (www.baptist-church.org) under "What we believe" as a comparison and except for bringing modern relevant issues into focus and making changes which either further explain (but do not change) our doctrine,, that also seems to be a rash statement.

Besides the liberal news media following every dispute on the floor of the convention, leaders seem to be somewhat in agreement these days. Are we not liberal enough for you?

[ October 07, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

I was notified that my post was a violation of the posting rules so I have modified it to remove the personal attack and I hereby apologize for breaking the forum rules.

I do not, however, apologize for thinking that people who form their opinions of what is right and wrong in Christianity on the basis of what "mainstream" American Christianity thinks or on the basis of whether or not they will be perceived as "uneducated" are wicked.

Nor to I apologize for thinking that the left wing of the Southern Baptist Convention is categorically wicked.

Mark Osgatharp

[ October 07, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

Of course you are an exceptionally poor judge of other people's beliefs and character... Your slander of Leon McBeth is a perfect example of that and he's not even in the "left wing".

[ October 07, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Let's move this back to topic.

 

I like points 1, 3, and ESPECIALLY 4. I don't have a problem with 2 so long as you're not saying there isn't a place for sound Christian pyschological counseling in our churches. I deal with many victims of various types of abuse who would prefer a Christian counselour.

 

Maverick -good point about the decline in church training and education in the last several years.

 

If the SBC was irrelevant, Aaron Sorkin would not have included it in each of the three seasons of the "West Wing" for a political/ethical reference; the media would not have gone ape over the comments made by Dr. Vines; there would not be the protests against the SBC and the vitriol against SBC leadership. Irrelevant? Hardly. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we SBs were irrelevant

 

Tom,
I don't mean people won't respond when an SBC leader says something controversial. I mean the general public and most people of faith will not even consider the SBC's positions as legitimate alternatives based on their stances on women, the bible, creationism, etc. When your credibilty is gone, who listens to your advice?

 

You mistakenly believe that the SBC credibility is a thing of the past. To argue this is not indepedently looking at the facts. And it is influence when people deal with your opinions. There's a reason no one talks about Matt Drudge anymore, but people do talk about Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly, just as examples.

 

Do you realize that the doctrine of inerrancy has been outlined and detailed by those within the Reformed camp? Not only that, what are you if you aren't an orthodox Protestant (of the Reformational position)?

Rev. G</font>[/QUOTE]Rev.G,

The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy was being taught long before the Protestant Reformation was ever heard of. I am not an orthodox Protestant. I am an orthodox Bible believing Baptist.

I don't know how anyone could be so illogical as to think that a return to Calvinism would bring revival, when Calvinism teaches that revival, along with every other move we make, is nothing more or less than a capricious work of God in the first place. I don't know how any Calvinist could even think a return to Calvinism could be effected by man, since it's all a done deal anyway.

What the Southern Baptist Convention churches, along with every Baptist church that I know anything about, including the one I pastor, need is a good old fashioned dose of repentance, for when men heed God's call to repentance He is moved to pour out His blessings, and when that happens revival breaks out. As David said,

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness."

Mark Osgatharp

 

Capricious? You obviously don't understand the doctrines of grace.

No revival? The Protestant Reformation was one of the greatest revivals of all time. Add to that the Great Awakening, and the first phase of the Second Great Awakening. God honors the preaching that honors Him.

Rev. G</font>[/QUOTE]Rev.G,

Yes, I understand all the fine spun quibbles by which Calvinists attempt to rescue their doctrine from logical and Scriptural reasoning. I just don't buy into them. I characterize Calvinism on my own terms, not on Calvinist terms.

You say "God honors the preaching that honors him." In the Calvinist mind that can't mean anything other than:

1. God predestinated the preaching that honors Him.

2. God predestinated the response to preaching that honors him - some to reject it and some to accept it.

3. God predestinated the preaching that does not honor him.

Therefore my asssertion remains: in the Calvinist system man can't really do anything other than sit back and watch while God does nor does not give revival.

Mark Osgatharp