The SDA Church!

[Claudia_T]

I just wanted to add something else.

The beauty of the doctrine of Jesus being Michael the Archangel is that Jesus Christ has been with His people all throughout the history of makind.


Who Is as God!
When Phillip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father, Christ responded: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Some think that God's Son waited 4,000 years to personally intervene in the affairs of man. Not so! Though it is true that the incarnation occurred 4,000 years after man's fall, God the Son has been personally involved in the history and affairs of His people.

What a wonderful truth that Jesus, God's eternal Son, has ever been actively occupied in watching over, providing for, and protecting His children! He spoke face to face with Abraham and Moses and wrestled with Jacob. He led the Israelites through the wilderness, providing food and water and victory against their enemies.

Remember that the title "Michael the archangel" means "The greatest messenger who is as God." It was Jesus, "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), who brought the greatest message of hope, the gospel, to our perishing world!


Whom did God promise would especially guide Israel to the Promised Land?
"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared." Exodus 23:20.

Who was the Rock that went with them?
"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4.


Unfortunately though, this truth gets lost when people accuse our church of claiming that Jesus was a created being, etc... which is just not true.

We fully believe in the diety of Christ. The term "Angel of the Lord" often in biblical terms just means "Messenger of God". Jesus was the greatest Messenger of God there ever was.

He is known in the Bible as "The Captain of the Hosts" or the leader of all the Heavenly Angels.


Mt:24:31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mt:25:31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

IMMANUEL... "God with Us!"

Claudia

[ April 19, 2006, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Claudia_T]

Reading through Michael Schiffler’s article about Michael the Archangel, I would add a couple of things to it….


Where he says this:

“Who raises the dead with His voice? Not a created angel, indeed not even a created archangel. The shout is given with the voice of the *archangel*, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself”
“It is the voice of Jesus Christ (the Son of man) that raises the dead. Just as 1 Th 4:16 says, the Lord Jesus shall descend from heaven and shout with the voice of the Archangel, because He is the Archangel. With that shout, the righteous dead will be raised from their graves!”

I would also add the fact that it was Jesus’s voice that called Lazarus to rise from the grave:

Jn:11:43: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.


…and I would also add that in some places where the Bible says AN ANGEL of the Lord… just so that nobody would think, well that couldn’t be Jesus because it is just AN Angel…

Judg 2:1 And an *angel of the LORD* came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

I would show them this:


Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be A PRINCE and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Note that it refers to Jesus Christ as "A Prince" and so therefore "AN Angel of the Lord" doesnt mean its not Jesus.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

This is for anybody who would like to read a little about why the Seventh Day Adventist Church believes in the prophetic ministry of Ellen White


Great Controversy Introduction
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gcintroduction.html


Patriarchs and Prophets Introduction
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/pp/ppintroduction.html

 

[Claudia_T]

Biblical Tests of a Prophet, Eye Witness Accounts
and some reasons why the SDA church believes EG White was a Messenger of God:

http://www.seventh-day.org/Prophecy.htm


http://www.seventh-day.org/testsofproph.htm


http://www.seventh-day.org/egw_testimony.htm

http://www.seventh-day.org/2nd_testimony.htm

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/TOC.html


This will give you a little bit of a foundation so that you will know why we believe as we do...

Bye for now, I have to go do some things.

Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:

The beauty of the doctrine of Jesus being Michael the Archangel is that Jesus Christ has been with His people all throughout the history of makind.

As nice as all this is --- it is not a doctrine of the SDA church - listed in the 27 (or 28) Fundamental Beliefs and "agreed to" voted by the world wide convocation held every 5 years to confirm/update the statement of beliefs of this denomination.

Many also believe that Adam and all pre-flood people also lived much longer than humans do today and that they were considerably taller.

That too "is not a doctrine" listed in the 27 FB. Simply put - choose your battles wisely.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Just a note to all. "Offical" statements of beliefs and practices should not be the final factor in determining if a church is truly following Jesus' teachings.

Many "official" doctrines are very people friendly, but once drawn in then they get the full feeding of the church.

How many times have you heard a JW say "yes, we believe Jesus is the Son of God"?

The best way to analyize what a church believes and teaches is to have a dialogue with it's members. Statements of faith are only one tool to consider when making an evaluation of what a church truly teaches and believes.

I had a conversation in the past with SDA preachers who tried to convince me I was going to hell for eating pork regardless if I trusted in Jesus Christ! Now this is not an "official" church doctrine, but nonetheless, they were teaching in their church a false doctrine, and quite an important one as well. This church was based in New York.

Just because it is not "official" does not mean that it isn't being taught!

Just some thoughts!

God Bless!

 

[Ben W]

That is true Steaver!

At my Baptist Seminary the position of the college is that they teach an immediate heaven view, rather than the Soul Sleep of the dead doctrine. Yet there is one Baptist Youth Pastor there who is totally convinced of the Soul Sleep doctrine of his own accord which I find interesting. I suppose that Baptists too may well have people that refuse Pork and are into Soul Sleep also?

 

[Jim1999]

So, Ellen G. White is akin to Joseph Smith of the Mormons; Charles Taze Russell of the Jehovah's Witnesses; Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science; and the pope of the RCC.

I guess that places SDA in the right category, by your own admission.

By the way, go to hell is you eat pork, but it is ok to donate to the SDA by eating Kellog's products.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Claudia_T]

RECOMMENDATION AND CHALLENGE TO ALL

About 9 out of 10 objections to the Seventh Day Adventist Church are based on misinformation about what we actually believe and teach.

And so I want to challenge each of you to go here to this website at:
Storacle Lessons

Or go to the

Amazing Facts Home Page

and click on "Lessons" then when you get there to that page click on "Storacles"

...and watch each of the "Storacle" Lessons. Click on the little "Television Sets" next to each of the Lessons and watch them on your screen. Listen to Doug Batchelor speak and explain what we believe.

I am betting that you will change your mind about the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

And at least then you will know what to actually disagree with... if you still disagree and it will be based on facts instead of misconceptions about our Church and it's teachings. Then we might could have an intelligent discussion about it.

Claudia

 

[DeclareHim]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
About 9 out of 10 objections to the Seventh Day Adventist Church are based on misinformation about what we actually believe and teach.

I find this line of reasoning funny. The Mormons say the same thing "People don't know what we truely teach.

Listen to Doug Batchelor speak and explain what we believe.

I am betting that you will change your mind about the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

And at least then you will know what to actually disagree with... if you still disagree and it will be based on facts instead of misconceptions about our Church and it's teachings. Then we might could have an intelligent discussion about it.

So we can ask the SDA's and use their sources to find out what they believe? But yet I cannot use RCC sources to check on their doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Going to CARM(Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)to use them as a source to learn what Seventh Day Adventists teach...


That is a bad idea, they are full of distortions ..

That is for sure!!

 

[Jim1999]

Yes, and Ellen White is more reliable to be sure.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
Just a note to all. "Offical" statements of beliefs and practices should not be the final factor in determining if a church is truly following Jesus' teachings.

Many "official" doctrines are very people friendly, but once drawn in then they get the full feeding of the church.

How many times have you heard a JW say "yes, we believe Jesus is the Son of God"?

Indeed - they do "believe Jesus is the Son of God". But your statement is not correct - you CAN find the official statements of the JW church AND THEY DO state that they reject the trinity.

Here they publically deny the trinity for all to read.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/

Here they walk you through all of their doctrines
http://www.watchtower.org/beliefs_and_activities.htm

Is it your "claim" that JWs don't ACTUALLY believe this???

Be serious!

No organization can survive by publishing and promoting views that it rejects and refutes!

Even Walter Martin "got that point clearly"!

So if you can "prove" your case with JW's go ahead.

If you can "prove" your case with SDAS - go ahead!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DeclareHim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Listen to Doug Batchelor speak and explain what we believe.

I am betting that you will change your mind about the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

And at least then you will know what to actually disagree with... if you still disagree and it will be based on facts instead of misconceptions about our Church and it's teachings. Then we might could have an intelligent discussion about it.

So we can ask the SDA's and use their sources to find out what they believe? But yet I cannot use RCC sources to check on their doctrine. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What NON-RC source do you find me quoting for RC doctrine??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Bob...

Indeed - they do "believe Jesus is the Son of God". But your statement is not correct - you CAN find the official statements of the JW church AND THEY DO state that they reject the trinity.

You missed the point. "Official" does not always tell the entire story.

Have you ever heard a SDA preacher tell the congregation that pork eaters are hell bound? I have and when i challenged that I trust in Jesus Christ I was told that wasn't enough, that I had to trust and obey the law. Of course it was a pick and choose by the church which laws one was required to still obey to get to heaven.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Claudia...

About 9 out of 10 objections to the Seventh Day Adventist Church are based on misinformation about what we actually believe and teach.

Have you ever heard a pork sermon Claudia?

Can I eat pork, trust in Jesus Christ and still enter heaven?

Just wondering what you have heard on the subject from your preacher.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob...

Indeed - they do "believe Jesus is the Son of God". But your statement is not correct - you CAN find the official statements of the JW church AND THEY DO state that they reject the trinity.

Originally posted by steaver:

You missed the point. "Official" does not always tell the entire story.

You missed the point - I GAVE you the JW web site pointing to their doctrinal statements which YOU claim to be hiding the fact that they reject the Trinity. I SHOWED you that this was total untrue. I asked you to "prove" your illogical claim that their official doctrines are not what they believe.

And your response??

Hopefully that was not it.

Have you ever heard a SDA preacher tell the congregation that pork eaters are hell bound?

I have heard them dare to read Isaiah 66:17-18. I have SEEN that they dare to present the Bible subject of clean vs unclean foods IN PRINT in their 27FB published for all to read on the internet. But in NEITHER case have I ever heard them say all who eat pork go to hell.

But let's say for the sake of argument that "one" did -- does that serve to trash the entire denomination?? COULD it be an argument that the PUBLISHED material does not exist that ALREADY shows them to reject unclean foods??

BTW - I have heard "one" say a lot of things.

Do you actually have a point here?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:

Can I eat pork, trust in Jesus Christ and still enter heaven?

Not only that - but they all say you can ALSO reject Sabbath and still go to heaven.

Read the 27 FB (published for all the world to read online) and debate what you read there - instead of "making stuff up"!

If I want to debate people that just make stuff up - I have plenty of Catholics to choose from.

If you want to say that you base all your "beliefs" on "what you ever might have heard ONE person say" (inference or actual statement? who knows?) then fine - but make that clear at the start - and I will just skip it.

 

[BobRyan]

The "point" remains - NO group can survive by either rejecting their own published doctrines or in any way promoting doctrines/beliefs that they reject!

Honda is just not going to advertise for Ford telling everyone it is a better make - when they don't actually "believe" it.

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Christian evolutionists by comparison to CARM - are "saints" that have just a slight problem with facts.

And that should tell you something.

So with all the harping on CARM, and CARM having all the “facts” in regard to the SDA’s, wrong; is it safe to say that CARM is just as wrong with the “facts” in regard to the RCC?