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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BTW - I agree with you on the need to get past the obvious fact that God recommends, beef, lamb and salmon over "rats, cats, dogs and bats" in Lev 11 and in Isaiah 66.

The issue is the Word of God and as you point out the Commandments of God
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Claudia,
I understand your good intentions here. But they are YOUR intentions. My salvation is not contingent upon a healthy diet; if yours is, because eating a porkchop makes you stumble in faith, then so be it. But do not force another to stumble due to your lack of faith. I will do the same not to make you stumble by the liberty I have in eating a slice of Easter ham.
My point is that when personal preference and "good ideas" are raised to the level of essential doctrine and...gasp...morality.
Now, you seem to think that those outside your church are prone to eating roadkill or some unsanitary thing. I hate to tell you that beef can be just as unhealthy as pork, and even many fruits and vegetables available today are unhealthy (I have worked everywhere from grocery stores to food treatment and processing plants to the farms themselves-- I could tell stories that will scare you, from start to finish about how food gets from the farm/dairy to your dinner table). I do not eat unsanitary things. But I am not going to stumble in my faith if I have a cheeseburger or even if I have a glass of wine with my fish. If you do, then I will pray that you remain firm in your faith.
But
I do not raise my preferences to the point of absolute moral standards to which all others must conform. To do so-- as you are doing-- is wrong. I showed you why in Scripture. Please. Do the graceful thing. Do not judge your brothers and destroy what God has made for the sake of FOOD.

Blessings,
SpyHunter
I dont recall trying to force anybody to do anything.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Claudia,
I understand your good intentions here. But they are YOUR intentions. My salvation is not contingent upon a healthy diet; if yours is, because eating a porkchop makes you stumble in faith, then so be it. But do not force another to stumble due to your lack of faith. I will do the same not to make you stumble by the liberty I have in eating a slice of Easter ham.
My point is that when personal preference and "good ideas" are raised to the level of essential doctrine and...gasp...morality.
Now, you seem to think that those outside your church are prone to eating roadkill or some unsanitary thing. I hate to tell you that beef can be just as unhealthy as pork, and even many fruits and vegetables available today are unhealthy (I have worked everywhere from grocery stores to food treatment and processing plants to the farms themselves-- I could tell stories that will scare you, from start to finish about how food gets from the farm/dairy to your dinner table). I do not eat unsanitary things. But I am not going to stumble in my faith if I have a cheeseburger or even if I have a glass of wine with my fish. If you do, then I will pray that you remain firm in your faith.
But
I do not raise my preferences to the point of absolute moral standards to which all others must conform. To do so-- as you are doing-- is wrong. I showed you why in Scripture. Please. Do the graceful thing. Do not judge your brothers and destroy what God has made for the sake of FOOD.

Blessings,
SpyHunter
I dont recall trying to force anybody to do anything.
 

SpyHunter

New Member
Bob, Nice way to dodge my points there, but for future reference when you provide a proper exegetical point worth commenting on, then I will step into that realm with you. So far, all I've seen is boldening of certain words and a stubborn refusal to see them as anything other than how your church chooses to view them. That is not exeges, my friend, that is dogmatism, and I responded accordingly.
Claudia, I glad to see that you aren't as militant as our friend Bob who makes no bones about the imperative need to follow him on the matter to whatever insane destination he plans to take us. So maybe I'll tone down my advice to you personally to this-- If someone's not being safe in their diet, then advise them of better habits. But if they do not agree in the need for it, then just pray for them. There is no need to turn it into a theological matter when it is simply a physical one. Yes, we should all be try to live healthy lives. But you know what? Paul didn't make an issue out of it; he took measures to insure it would not be an issue. You have given good advice, but when the chips fall I am going to side with pure Scripture on the matter. I hope that is something Bob will come to do in the future.

Blessings,
SpyHunter
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Bob, Nice way to dodge my points there, but for future reference when you provide a proper exegetical point worth commenting on, then I will step into that realm with you. So far, all I've seen is boldening of certain words and a stubborn refusal to see them as anything other than how your church chooses to view them. That is not exeges, my friend, that is dogmatism, and I responded accordingly.
Claudia, I glad to see that you aren't as militant as our friend Bob who makes no bones about the imperative need to follow him on the matter to whatever insane destination he plans to take us. So maybe I'll tone down my advice to you personally to this-- If someone's not being safe in their diet, then advise them of better habits. But if they do not agree in the need for it, then just pray for them. There is no need to turn it into a theological matter when it is simply a physical one. Yes, we should all be try to live healthy lives. But you know what? Paul didn't make an issue out of it; he took measures to insure it would not be an issue. You have given good advice, but when the chips fall I am going to side with pure Scripture on the matter. I hope that is something Bob will come to do in the future.

Blessings,
SpyHunter
Well I thought this was supposed to be a debate thing where you tell your views and I tell mine?

Why would you not want me to do that just because you disagree with me on this particular subject?

I dont see the whole thing the same way you do.

...and I thought "Bob the Militant Man" was doing just fine, actually.

I cant compare even a little bit in his ability to debate things, I wish that I could.

Claudia
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SpyHunter:
It is foolishness to bring one's personal preferences into a debate labeled as God's commandments. But of course it would then be easier to twist verses which talk about obedience to God's commandments.
The fact remains that this is a New Covenant in which we are not bound by ancient ceremonial laws.

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It would have been better to actually respond to the NT texts given regarding the requirement of God's people NOT to rebel against His Word - NOT to rebel Against His own spoken Law etc - than to simply say that quoting God in this regard is "bad".

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3871/4.html#000048

Have another go at it.

Try clicking on that link and answering even one of the Bible texts listed there that seem to refute your argument above.


Notice carefully how your quote seeks to "pick and choose" within scripture calling some parts of God's word useless "ancient ceremony".

My argument by contrast is that we "listen to scripture". I make that argument "sola scriptura".

The list of texts given in that link "proves it".

Dodging the point only "further proves it".

To take the position I am taking on this - you have to really be "serious about sola scriptura" to the point that you refuse to come to the Bible with the attitude "I don't want to do what God says here - what excuse can I find for ignoring HIM on this one part of the Bible?"

So the list in that link is "put forward" and your dodge of those texts is "noted".

In fact it is "instructive" the way you seem to disdain the quotes from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ given in that link. It is as if you find them "offensive".

But in fact - they simply contradict man-made tradition.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

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Christ speaks of the peace of God from the Holy Spirit (John 14) AND of our need to "keep My commandments" (John 14) IN THE SAMe chapter!

Instead of being in conflict - the Word of God turns out to be "in harmony".

I see you view this as a kind of "surprise". Cheer up -- it is not as bad as you think to simply accept the Word of God as spoken in scripture. John 14 calls us to "KEEP" His commandments AND to LOVE Him AND promises IN that context - the PEACE of God!

We see the same thing in Gal 5 where rebellion against God is contrasted to the Peace given as the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob
 

SpyHunter

New Member
I really don't care about what another thread says. I'm talking about this one. I agree with obedience to God. But just because you "say" something is a commandment of God and add an ambiugous and non-related passage as a reference, does not make it so.
Surely you will concede that your opinion is not infallable.
And yet all you have done is presented opinion and force Scripture to agree with it. That is foolishness, and I was pointing it out. Others have done a fine job of debating, and I will leave that to them. I am just pointing out that your interpretation of (most) Scripture passages cited thus far have been out of synch with the "harmony" of Scripture.
I suppose this is the reason why "I" am "surprised" that Scripture is harmonious. What you meant to say is that I don't buy into your hokey systemized theology and by definition that makes me a rebel in your eyes. So be it. But when one has so many "hard passages" that require "explanation" in order for their doctrine to hold up, then that itself brings that doctrine into question.
In the end, I suppose my point is that the truth requires no maintenance. But yours does, Bob. Think on that.

Blessings,
SpyHunter
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Anyone know what "surfeiting" means?

Lk:21:34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
ok so what is dissipation?

(and dont say it means surfeiting)
laugh.gif
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SpyHunter:
I really don't care about what another thread says. I'm talking about this one. I agree with obedience to God. But ...
Here is what we actually find "in scripture" when it Comes to obeying God's Word.

Many of those who care about a "sola scriptura" approach here and sound priniciples of exegesis have shown appreciation of the texts listed here.

Very few others will even quote them.

The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.

John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --
Romans 3:31 “Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”
So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”
Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

Matt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.

Is it any wonder that Paul writes

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31
And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty".

God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".

Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SpyHunter:
just because you "say" something is a commandment of God and add an ambiugous and non-related passage
More vaccuous claims SpyH? Why not actually quote the texts and comments and then RESPOND to DETAILS rather than simply ranting in vague accusation form?

Hint: Try engaging in the subject at the level of "detail" - as in pay attention to the points, the texts etc and then "respond" to what is being said.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
SpyHunter said

Scripture passages cited thus far have been out of synch with the "harmony" of Scripture
And the "proof" for that wild empty accusation is??....

Nada -- nothing at all given - no quotes from me no response to detail - just vague empty assertion and accusation.

How "instructive"
 
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