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I dont recall trying to force anybody to do anything.Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Claudia,
I understand your good intentions here. But they are YOUR intentions. My salvation is not contingent upon a healthy diet; if yours is, because eating a porkchop makes you stumble in faith, then so be it. But do not force another to stumble due to your lack of faith. I will do the same not to make you stumble by the liberty I have in eating a slice of Easter ham.
My point is that when personal preference and "good ideas" are raised to the level of essential doctrine and...gasp...morality.
Now, you seem to think that those outside your church are prone to eating roadkill or some unsanitary thing. I hate to tell you that beef can be just as unhealthy as pork, and even many fruits and vegetables available today are unhealthy (I have worked everywhere from grocery stores to food treatment and processing plants to the farms themselves-- I could tell stories that will scare you, from start to finish about how food gets from the farm/dairy to your dinner table). I do not eat unsanitary things. But I am not going to stumble in my faith if I have a cheeseburger or even if I have a glass of wine with my fish. If you do, then I will pray that you remain firm in your faith.
But
I do not raise my preferences to the point of absolute moral standards to which all others must conform. To do so-- as you are doing-- is wrong. I showed you why in Scripture. Please. Do the graceful thing. Do not judge your brothers and destroy what God has made for the sake of FOOD.
Blessings,
SpyHunter
I dont recall trying to force anybody to do anything.Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Claudia,
I understand your good intentions here. But they are YOUR intentions. My salvation is not contingent upon a healthy diet; if yours is, because eating a porkchop makes you stumble in faith, then so be it. But do not force another to stumble due to your lack of faith. I will do the same not to make you stumble by the liberty I have in eating a slice of Easter ham.
My point is that when personal preference and "good ideas" are raised to the level of essential doctrine and...gasp...morality.
Now, you seem to think that those outside your church are prone to eating roadkill or some unsanitary thing. I hate to tell you that beef can be just as unhealthy as pork, and even many fruits and vegetables available today are unhealthy (I have worked everywhere from grocery stores to food treatment and processing plants to the farms themselves-- I could tell stories that will scare you, from start to finish about how food gets from the farm/dairy to your dinner table). I do not eat unsanitary things. But I am not going to stumble in my faith if I have a cheeseburger or even if I have a glass of wine with my fish. If you do, then I will pray that you remain firm in your faith.
But
I do not raise my preferences to the point of absolute moral standards to which all others must conform. To do so-- as you are doing-- is wrong. I showed you why in Scripture. Please. Do the graceful thing. Do not judge your brothers and destroy what God has made for the sake of FOOD.
Blessings,
SpyHunter
Well I thought this was supposed to be a debate thing where you tell your views and I tell mine?Originally posted by SpyHunter:
Bob, Nice way to dodge my points there, but for future reference when you provide a proper exegetical point worth commenting on, then I will step into that realm with you. So far, all I've seen is boldening of certain words and a stubborn refusal to see them as anything other than how your church chooses to view them. That is not exeges, my friend, that is dogmatism, and I responded accordingly.
Claudia, I glad to see that you aren't as militant as our friend Bob who makes no bones about the imperative need to follow him on the matter to whatever insane destination he plans to take us. So maybe I'll tone down my advice to you personally to this-- If someone's not being safe in their diet, then advise them of better habits. But if they do not agree in the need for it, then just pray for them. There is no need to turn it into a theological matter when it is simply a physical one. Yes, we should all be try to live healthy lives. But you know what? Paul didn't make an issue out of it; he took measures to insure it would not be an issue. You have given good advice, but when the chips fall I am going to side with pure Scripture on the matter. I hope that is something Bob will come to do in the future.
Blessings,
SpyHunter
Here is what we actually find "in scripture" when it Comes to obeying God's Word.Originally posted by SpyHunter:
I really don't care about what another thread says. I'm talking about this one. I agree with obedience to God. But ...
The pre-cross Commandments of Christ the Creator were to be kept by Christ’s followers.
John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”
These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.
But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?
Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.Romans 3:31 “Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”
Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.
Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”
Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same
Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?Luke 23:56
Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’sMatt 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
As for Law and Grace -- Pauls words in Romans 2:13-16 come to mind relative to "justification".I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Here the "New Covenant" promise of the "Law written on the heart" is clearly seen.Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Is it any wonder that Paul writes
And James 2 tells us to live and act as those "Who are to be judged by God's Law of Liberty"."Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31
God is not "calling for rebellion against His Law" as many Christians today "suppose".
Nor is He "abolishing His law" so that only the lost are guilty of breaking it - but the saved can freely transgress and in fact are commanded not to regard it at all. Rather God declares that the name of God is profaned among the wicked by the breaking of His law among the saints. (in Romans 2)
More vaccuous claims SpyH? Why not actually quote the texts and comments and then RESPOND to DETAILS rather than simply ranting in vague accusation form?Originally posted by SpyHunter:
just because you "say" something is a commandment of God and add an ambiugous and non-related passage
And the "proof" for that wild empty accusation is??....SpyHunter said
Scripture passages cited thus far have been out of synch with the "harmony" of Scripture