OldRegular:
"Your second statement:
quote:
------------------------
You expect way too much.
------------------------
OldRegular: "I expect nothing from dispensationalists except a repetition of false doctrine"
Your ad homineim argument is noted.
Your vermicular converstation is noted.
I am NOT a dispensationalist as you yourself have defined
the term 'dispensationalist'.
I am however a dispensatinalist as God defines 'dispensationalist'
in the Holy Bible. I am a good steward of what God has intrusted to
me. What God has intrusted to me is the hope of the Pretribulation
Rapture/resurrection and the ability to explain it beyond what John
Darby could explain.
John Darby did not know that one day mankind would
invent nuclear weapons and by 1964 would be capable of destroying all
life on Earth, surely all Human life. Ed knoted this event in 1964.
When i was first saved in April 1952 at a Pretrib Revival Meeting,
i believed that God would whip the bad guys in the Tribulation Period.
Actually after 1964 I could see that God will interfer in love to save
Mankind from destroying themselves.
John Darby saw 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 as assuming that a pretribulation
rapture/resurrection had taken place. I have been given grace from
God to see that the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2:3
is the PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE itself". Some are want to say,
How can the 'caught up'in the sky of 1 Thess 4 be the 'falling away'
from Earth in 2 Thess 2? If you have a digital camera to
record the event, you just hold your camera 180-degrees about.
If your camera is pointed up to the sky, then folks are caught up;
if your camera is pointed down to the earth, then folks are
falling away from this old earth right into the hands of Jesus!
Say, can i ask a genric question here?
If everything was finished when Jesus died on the Cross, why
did he have to arise from the grave? What was finished (completed) on
the Cross was the hard part of the chore of Jesus: die for our sins.
The rest of the chore prior to Resurrection was easy: whipping Satan.
If everything is finished when Jesus comes again, and the world is
destroyed - how is that different from what Mankind can do: destroy
all mankind?
OldRegular:
//------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
1. You have yet to show the Historical
and Biblical Baptist Doctrine
stand you say Baptists hold.
---------------------------------
//The above statement is totally false. Why do you deliberately make
such false statements? I posted excerpts from historical Baptist Confessions
in the OP. These Confessions and the Abstract of Principles clearly
teach a general resurrection and judgment just as Jesus Christ
does on John 5:28, 29: //
The above statement is totally true. I keep telling the truth.
These Confessions and the Abstract of Principles are not clearly
teaching a general resurrection and judgement no more than the
Old Testament (OT) Messanic prophecies preach one and only one coming
(arrival, appearance, advent) of our Blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah
Yeshua (AKA: Iesus, and Jesus). The Jews still read only the OT
and construe that the Messian will come one and only one time.
Yes, you can read into John 5:28 and John 5:29 that there is one
and only one resurrection. How come I have received from God's word
and denoted the differences between FIVE judgements?
(and notice how neat an evangelistic message it makes
)
John 5:28-29 quoted by OldRegular:
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are
in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.
This does NOT say:
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are
in the graves shall hear his voice,
29.and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; AND IN THE SAME EXACT
60-minute HOUR (HOUR as defined by SCIENCE): they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of damnation.
Why do you let science define your term?
The correct understanding of HOUR here is "the right time" - Jesus
will raise the good (via Jesus) unto life
at the right time and will raise the evil unto damnation at the
right time. Nobody said those two times would be in the same science
defined '60-minute-hour'.
OldRegular: " ... you have been too busy posting TEE HEE to read and understand."
You mock the history of Internet communication.
How can you expect to be taken seriously when you try to define
the history of Baptists?
Back before smilies
, back before semi-colon end-parens [
] smiley
faces, there was 'TeeHee' to indicate one is not taking oneself too
seriously.
----------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
IDEALISM - N.T. prophecy is spiritual truths too deep for
--- OldRegular and Ed to understand
-----------------------------------
OldRegular: //Ed, The spiritual truths in the New Testament are obviously too
deep for you to understand but don't judge others by yourself.//
I take it then you are an Idealist?
Just in case you are - I restate:
IDEALISM - N.T. prophecy is spiritual truth
After i defined a bunch of nutral eschatological viewpoint definitions,
Brother OldRegular says:
"Am I supposed to stand and applaud now.
By the way it is millennial not millinnial."
I've been asked by various and sundry Moderators not to correct
the spelling of fellow posters. Maybe the rules are different for you?
It wouldn't hurt you case if you did stand and applaud. I was
giving nutral definions to show the flavor of various eschatological
stances. But you choose to mock me. I just hope i didn't catch you
with a couple of terms you are not familiar with
OldRegular: "In truth, though the eschatology of the dispensationalist
is completely false,
it is their doctrine of the failure of Jesus Christ in His mission tha
is most repugnant."
I don't dare name your eschatology, i'll let you do it.
Again, I deny I am an dispensationalist as you define the term.
My Futurist, pre-millinnial Second Coming, pretribulation rapture
eschatology does not teach the failure of Jesus Chirst
in his mission. This is an anti-pretribualtion rapture lie.
IN fact, those who say the rapture is the same 48-hour-day as the
Second Advent appearance of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist -
they are the ones who 'think Jesus is a missiona failure'. For they
consign the Jews to the dustbin of History forgotten by God.
Come on, the reason we gentiles can be saved is that the Jews
of the Time of Jesus, in most, rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
Why did the promises to Abraham renewed to King David about the
special Israeli people - why didn't God not keep those promises?
God has a plan to win a maximum number of national Jews. If the
Lord comes today, there will be 18 Million Jewish people. Most of them
will turn to Jesus when they see the Anti-messiah commit the abomination
of desolation (AOD) - then many will see Jesus is their true Messiah
and be saved for all eternity. No, the only way that Jesus can complete
His mission is THE PLAN: pretribulation rapture/resurrection followed
by the Tribualtion (see Revelation 4-19, the parts that take place
on earth) Period, followed by the Triumphant return of Jesus to
destroy the Antichrist and set up a physical 1,000-year-long over
a physical Israel in a physcial world ruling a physical kingdom from
a physical Throne of David in a physical world.
Me4Him: //"Charts makes explaining much easier, less typing, and I'm "lazy".//
Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach on! Charts make the scriptures come
alive. However, Ii note that the charts don't do much for convincing
the heard of heart
DeafPosttrib: "Early Church does not teaching on that in the first of 18 Centuries
till Darby developed it, and they started to adopt his new treachings.
They departed from the truth of Bible, and Early Church's
statement of faith on second coming, and they follow new
teaching of pretribulationism."
DeafPosttrib blames pretribulationism on Darby, OldRegular blames
dispensationalism. I wish you guys could agree with each other on
how to attack Bro. Me4Him
Which reminds me of another strength of pretribulation raptureism:
you can get to posttrib from pre-mill or a-mill.
YOu can only get to pretrib from pre-mill. Two ways to make a mistake,
one way to get it right!
from Articles 19 of the Abstract of Principle
of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (1858):
"At the last day, the bodies of all the dead,
both just and unjust, will be raised."
Science defines a day as a 24-hour period measured one place
on the earth or a 48-hour period measured all places on the earth.
If one takes a Science definition of 'day' here, one has that all
these resurrections take place AT THE SAME TIME. But other
scriptures DO NOT teach this. There are more than one defintion
of 'day'. The general prophetic meaning of day is 'the right time'.
I see no reason that these Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
should have a better revelation than the authors of the Bible.
The last days started about 33AD, day of Pentacost, as shown in
Acts 2:17. That is 2005-33 years ago = 1,972 years ago. Humm,
last days = 1,972 years and counting - why cannot the 'last day',
the last right time be more than 48-hours?
Looking around for a candidate time period, we might notice
the 42 months; 1260 days; time, times, and half a time; half
of 7 (years). All these point to 3½-years as some say, and
2 times 3½-years = seven years as others say. This choice seems
to work better than any other definiction of a 'day' as in
'last day' 'Day of the Lord', in most any prophetic day which has
not happened yet.
The Midland Association Confession [1655]
Article 16 [page 200, Lumpkin].
“That at the time appointed of the Lord, the dead bodies of all men,
just and unjust shall rise out of their graves, that all may
receive according to what they have done in their bodies,
be it good or evil.”
Yep, good summary. But the phrase is 'time appointed of the Lord'
not 'time appointed of the Lord and measured by Science'.
Sorry, this statement can be 'amened' by every pretribulation
rapture believer.
The Somerset Confession [1656]
Article XL [page 214].
“That there is a day appointed, when the Lord shall raise the
unjust as well as the righteous, and judge them all in righteousness,
but every man in his own order, taking vengeance on them
that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord
Jesus Christ, whose punishment will be everlasting destruction
from the presence of the Lord.”
I really don't think 'day appointed' means a day as measured by
20th century science at 48-each-60-minute-hours. Well it could, but
i doubt if those folk in 1656 would have agreed to it
The Standard Confession [1660]
Article XX [page 231].
“That there shall be [through Christ who was dead but is alive again
from the dead] a Resurrection of all men from the graves of the earth,
both the just and the unjust, that is, the fleshly bodies of men,
sown into the graves of the earth, corruptible, dishonourable,
weak, natural, [which so considered cannot inherit the Kingdom
of God] shall be raised again, incorruptible, in glory
in power, spiritual, and so considered, the bodies of
the Saints [united again to their spirits] which here suffer
for Christ, shall inherit the Kingdom, reigning together with Christ.”
This isn't even specific in how much time it takes
or how many resurrections there are. Take your pick 1 to 10 resurrections
and one minute to 7,000 years. Well, those folks were good at pleasing
all the various eschatologies at once.
Marcia: "OR, ...
I read through your OP. Can you point out specifically which
of the above statements dispensationalism disagrees with? Thanks"
He probably won't respond or won't get it right. I take liberty
to speak for various and sundry branches of dispensationalism:
Dispensatinalists do NOT disagree with the Opening Post (OP) statements.
These statements are very generic and agree with most commonly held
eschatologies. Only esoteric eschatologies can disagree with these
statements. The statement in the SBC1963 and SBC 2000 statements
do NOT disagree with this and make room for a-mills and pre-mills alike.
The eschatological stands in such combined statements are made to
unite people, not to figure out where they stand seperate eschatologically.
OldRegular Definition of Dispensationalism1: "Dispensationalism teaches
that there will be multiple
resurrections and judgments and, therefore, is in disagreement
with all the above statements.."
OldRegular Definition of Dispensationalism2: "As reported
by Lloyd-Jones [page 138]
Irving was apparently the originator of ‘the secret rapture’
which is the bedrock of dispensational eschatology."
Seems not only do you have to go out on a limb for this 'definition'
you have go out on a twig, out on a leaf, out to the end of the leaf.
I don't believe in a 'secret rapture', whatever it is.
And i still can't find in this topic where anybody defines a 'secret
rapture'. And I tire greatly of those who bring this long dead
strawman, 'secret rapture', to our meetings.
These two defintions of 'dispensatinalism' do not agree.
I agree with the first in that their will be multiple resurrections
of persons both multiple general resurrections of the of
the just in Christ (pretrib) and a resurrection of the just
seperate from the resurrection of the unjust (premillinnial).
OldRegular: "The question is not whethe
there is a distinction between the nation Israel and the Church,
there obviously is. The concern is the relationship between true
or spiritual Israel, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23], and the Church."
According to my pretriblation rapture/ressurection, pre-millinnial
Second Coming in power, futuristic: the important thing is between
the nation Israel and the Church.
If fact, there are two Israels and two Churches and two elects.
One Israel is physical Israel which will be saved in the coming Tribulation Period.
One Israel is spiritual Israel which will be raptured/resurrected
out of this world before the coming Tribulation period.
The physical Israel is the church that was protected in the
wilderness outside Sinai and will be protected in the Tribulation
Period in the wilderness by the very hand of God from the dark forces
of the Antichrist.
The spiritual Israel is the gentile church (plus some Messanic Jews)
who proteced in the Tribulation Period by GOING HOME to be with Jesus
in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
Obviously the two elects are the Two Churches.
OldRegular: //3. Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy.
Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish
the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that
He established the Church instead. ... //
I object to the word 'instead'. God's PLAN 'A' was to save the whole
world through Jesus, the Christ - well, as many as would have that salvation.
God knew ahead of time that Israel would not, in large, accept Jesus then
as Savior. So God caused the no-people (AKA: guoim /or goy/ or automen)
to be saved for 2,000 years now to shame the Jews. But God's first love
was Israel, not the Church (the Church was second in time sequence).
God will get back to Yisreal soon.
My eschatology has the gentile church (the statement doesn't seem to
realise God has two churches and three kingdoms) IS included in
both OT and NT prophecy.
Unfortunately i've not got time to go over all the errors in OldRegular's
understanding of what self proclaimed dispensationalists have said.
Not that the self appointed dispnesationalist were even right all the time
anyway. Sorry, but the whole history of Christianity is one of growth
and backsliding. We grow in our understanding of God, but many backslide.
I'll try to study these bumbling musings of OldRegular about the
'evil' dispensatinalists. But it will take months to undo the damage
he has done in confusing folks.
BTW, I've been in places where i had to say, "I'm not a Christian like
you beleive". (I am and will forever remain a Messanic Jesus Phreaque,
but i'm not buing into nor falling for every body's mis-definition of
'Christian'. I'm especially shy of being a 'Christian' before a Jew.
To a Jew who read how half the Jews in the world died under the heavy
hand of the alleged Christian 'Adolf Hitler" - even more those who managed
to survive - the word 'Christian' is more offensive than the
'N'-word to the African-american or the 'L'-word is to fundamentalists.
I try not to use 'Christ' and "Christian' if i can in case a Jew
is around. Offending Jews is NOT CONDUSIVE TO SPIRITUAL HEALTH.
