The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

[rjprince]

OR,

Jesus died to redeem those of this age and to redeem those in the OT who had faith in God but only the blood of bulls and goats as a temporary covering for their sins. He also died to cover the sins of an Israel that would one day be restored and given a new heart (Deut 29:1-4; 30:1-6; Jer 31:31-34; Rom 11:25-29; Hosea, all of it!).

How non-dispies can just ignore the literal promises of God to Abraham and his PHYSICAL descendants is really beyond my grasp! NOT THAT I HAVE NOT READ COVENANT THEOLOGIANS EXTENSIVELY, I HAVE, I JUST CANNOT SEE WHY THEY DO NOT GET IT!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by rjprince:
OR,

Jesus died to redeem those of this age and to redeem those in the OT who had faith in God but only the blood of bulls and goats as a temporary covering for their sins. He also died to cover the sins of an Israel that would one day be restored and given a new heart (Deut 29:1-4; 30:1-6; Jer 31:31-34; Rom 11:25-29; Hosea, all of it!).

How non-dispies can just ignore the literal promises of God to Abraham and his PHYSICAL descendants is really beyond my grasp! NOT THAT I HAVE NOT READ COVENANT THEOLOGIANS EXTENSIVELY, I HAVE, I JUST CANNOT SEE WHY THEY DO NOT GET IT!

Simple, because it is false.

 

[OldRegular]

I am saved by the Grace of God through the death of God the Son, Jesus Christ. I am not ashamed to say that to a Jew or anyone else. You dispensationalists, no matter what breed, have got to decide whether those for whom Jesus Christ died to redeem to God the Father are the beloved of God or whether the unbelieving, stiffnecked Jews are the beloved of God.

Stephen said of the Jews in Acts 7:51-60: [Edited for personal attack]

51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53. Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.
59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen, a Christian, spoke ill against those who delivered Jesus Christ to the Roman Cross. Did God take the life of Stephen because he spoke ill of the Jews, or was he killed by an evil people who were stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears and who always resist the Holy Ghost?

Just answer the question ED. No dispensational nonsense.

[ September 16, 2005, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rjprince:
OR,

Jesus died to redeem those of this age and to redeem those in the OT who had faith in God but only the blood of bulls and goats as a temporary covering for their sins. He also died to cover the sins of an Israel that would one day be restored and given a new heart (Deut 29:1-4; 30:1-6; Jer 31:31-34; Rom 11:25-29; Hosea, all of it!).

How non-dispies can just ignore the literal promises of God to Abraham and his PHYSICAL descendants is really beyond my grasp! NOT THAT I HAVE NOT READ COVENANT THEOLOGIANS EXTENSIVELY, I HAVE, I JUST CANNOT SEE WHY THEY DO NOT GET IT!

Simple, because it is false. </font>[/QUOTE]To deny that the promises to Abraham will "Literally" be fulfilled is to also deny the "PHYSICAL KINGDOM" promised to the Jews in the OT will be fulfilled, and that kingdom is the "MK, or "Seventh day".

Jews interpret scripture "literally", not spiritually, but either way it's interpreted, it's still "TRUE", this is why there is a "Spiritual kingdom" (Church) and a "Literal Kingdom". (MK)

Just as Prophecy has a "DUAL APPLICATION", one spiritual, one literal, so does the promises made to Abraham, one "Spiritual" (By faith, Church/Gentiles) and one "Literal", natural descendants of Abraham. (thy seed)

We are only "GRAFFED IN" to the "FIG TREE" (Israel) some of the "Branches" were broken off, but the "ROOT" of the "Fig tree is still "HOLY".

In other words, the FIG TREE never completed died. (God isn't finished with Israel)

Jews will still have to have "FAITH" to be saved, that plan doesn't end until Jesus returns.

Lu 18:8 Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


Da 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: (Roman empire)

Da 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

(revived Roman empire, one world government, trib period)

Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

first Roman empire=Spiritual kingdom, Church
Revived Roman empire, Trib=physical kingdom, MK.

The following "chart" shows how these "promises" are fulfilled, both "Spiritually" and "literally".

The promise to "send Elijah" was fulfilled in "John the Bap", but the "Physical Elijah" is coming back as one of the "two witnesses".

"spiritul vision" was required to "SEE" the Messiah in his first coming, however "literal vision" will work just fine when he returns "in the sky".

So you see, God's promises are fulfilled both "Spiritual" and "literal".

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:

Originally posted by rjprince:
[qb] OR,

Jesus died to redeem those of this age and to redeem those in the OT who had faith in God but only the blood of bulls and goats as a temporary covering for their sins. He also died to cover the sins of an Israel that would one day be restored and given a new heart (Deut 29:1-4; 30:1-6; Jer 31:31-34; Rom 11:25-29; Hosea, all of it!).

How non-dispies can just ignore the literal promises of God to Abraham and his PHYSICAL descendants is really beyond my grasp! NOT THAT I HAVE NOT READ COVENANT THEOLOGIANS EXTENSIVELY, I HAVE, I JUST CANNOT SEE WHY THEY DO NOT GET IT!

Simple, because it is false. </font>

Originally posted by Me4Him:
To deny that the promises to Abraham will "Literally" be fulfilled is to also deny the "PHYSICAL KINGDOM" promised to the Jews in the OT will be fulfilled, and that kingdom is the "MK, or "Seventh day".

There will be no physical Kingdom. Jesus Christ told us in John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus Christ also told us through the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50-57

50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jews interpret scripture "literally", not spiritually, but either way it's interpreted, it's still "TRUE", this is why there is a "Spiritual kingdom" (Church) and a "Literal Kingdom". (MK)

The Jews never could interpret Scripture, period. As posted earlier Stephen correctly characterized the Jews when he stated in Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. [This passage also tells us that the Holy Spirit was active in the Old Testament.]

Jesus Christ came to die for the sins of His people, those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. The Jews rejected Jesus Christ because thay thought He came to overthrow the yoke of Rome and reestablish the throne of David. They delivered Him to Rome to be crucified. However, that was all according to the plan of God. He told Isaiah in 6:9, 10

9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 13:14, 15

14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Aposyle Paul also tells us in Acts 28:25-27

25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Finally the Apostle Peter tells the Jews in Acts 2:22-24

22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[OldRegular]

As noted in the OP no dispensationalist has as yet given any response to justify discarding historic, and most importantly Biblical Doctrine, in order to embrace dispensational error.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

The context of Daneil chapter 2 say nothing on 'a thousand years', also, neither it saying the kingdom shall be last for only a thousand years.

Read Dan. 2:44 carefully: "And in the day of these kings SHALL 'the God of heaven' set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed and the shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and comsume all these kingdoms, and IT shall stand FOR EVER."

It tells us, 'in the days of these kings' speaks of Old Testament period of the kingdoms SHALL(future tense) become 'the God of heaven' set up a kingdom. It already fulfilled at Christ's coming and he did brought the kingdom of God/heaven to earth by spiritually 2,000 years ago. And it tells us, it stands for ever and ever.

Dan. 7:14 says, "And there was given him(Christ) dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his cominion is an EVERLASTING dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Also, verse 18 says, "But the saints of the most HIgh shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom FOR EVER, EVEN FOR EVER AN EVER."

Dan. 7:14,18 already fulfilled 2,000 years ago, Christ came to earth, brought the kingdom of God/heaven to here. Christ already give the key to the Church, and they received the power from Christ to witness the gospel of the kingdom to the world. Kingdom of God/heaven is an everlasting kingdom, no one include Satan shall destroy it. It stands forever. This does not saying it shall be last for only a thousand years.

On Abraham... Galatians chapter 3 talks on Abraham lot. Paul tells us, we are not justified by good works, we are justified by the faith. Same with Abraham was justified by his faith- "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye there that they(O.T. saints) are of faith, the SAME are the children of Abraham." - Gal. 3:6-7

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:for it is written, Crused is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might cone on the Gentiles THROUGH Jesus Christ; that we might receive the PROMISE of the Spirit THROUGH faith." - Gal. 3:13-14.

It tells us, Abraham's promise came upon the Gentiles, through by the faith. Now, we as Gentiles are share the same promise which God gaven to Abraham of Genesis chapter 12 and 15.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds as of many; BUT as of ONE, and to thy seed, which is CHRIST." - Gal. 3:16.

This verse does not limited for Jews or a tiny nation - Israel only, also, many seeds through nations(Gentiles) are now in Abraham's ssed which is through Christ by our faith.

You believe law and prophets will come again in the future again rapture.

"But BEFORE(calvary) faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justiified by faith. But AFTER that(Calvary) is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:23-26

It tells us, before calvary, they were kept the laws go with faith. When after calvary, we are no longer under the law, we are now justified in Christ by through our faith.

New Testament books do not suggest or saying anything that the laws shall be restoration or return again right after rapture for the coming seven year of tribulation period.

Because Christ said, "it is finished" when he was on the cross. That means, we are no longer under the law, and no more daily animal sacrifices again ever. Christ is our sacrifice for our sins through his blood. Now, we are his priests, we have right to ask Christ to forgive us our sins daily 24 hours.

"There is neither Jew nnor Greek, there is neither bon nore free, there is neither male nor femail: for YE are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus." - Gal. 3:28

It tells us, either Jew or Gentile, whosever believeth in Christ Jesus, both are all ONE in Jesus Christ. It does not limited for Jews of a tiny nation Israel only, also, it is for everyone of the nations who have faith in Christ, all are ONE in Christ.

"And if YE be Christ's, THEN are YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE." - Gal. 3:29

Paul tells us, if YOU(Me4Him) be in Christ's, so, therefore, YOU are belong to Abraham's seed and heirs through the PROMISE!!!

Genesis chapter 12 and 15 both are for us, which we have faith in Jesus, we are on the same boat, which Abraham and O.T. saints are on it already. We are share the same promise, which God gave it to Abraham.

Genesis chapter 12 and 15 says nothing about 'a thousand years'. This is speak of prophecy promise through Jesus Christ for the salvation of everyone of the world. It already fulfilled 2000 years by through calvary. Now, Gentiles are share with Jews on the same promise by the faith through Jesus Christ. So, therefore, Gentiles are already grafted into olive tree join with Jews, we are on the same tree which is through Jesus Christ. Simple and plain.

In CHrist
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
[QB]
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
[qb]

The Jews never could interpret Scripture, period. As posted earlier Stephen correctly characterized the Jews when he stated in Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. [This passage also tells us that the Holy Spirit was active in the Old Testament.</font>[/QUOTE]The "HOLY SPIRIT" was "Active" in the OT, not the "HOLY GHOST". (Comforter)

and the "Comforter is "taken out of the way" before the AC is revealed, leaving only the "HOLY SPIRIT" for the trib period.

Don't forget the "TRINITY".

Don't under estimate the Jews knowledge of scripture, they understood the OT better than any "Christian", and it is our "School master" for teaching the NT.

Let me show you another "difference" in the two coming of Jesus.

In his first coming he said:

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,

And his SECOND COMING:
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

And what was the reason Jesus said his servants "WOULD FIGHT",

if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight

Jesus and his servants fight to make this world "HIS KINGDOM". MK.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: (JEWS) and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The "COMFORTER" is the "defender" of "Christians", but "HE" is taken out before the AC is revealed. (rapture)

In the same way you can't build a doctrine on "ONE VERSE", neither can you just look at "one coming" of Jesus and understand the scriptures.


Daniel prophesied 70 weeks on "THY PEOPLE", that is "JEWS", the church had no part in the first 69 weeks and neither does it have a part in the last week. (trib)

At the end of Daniel’s seventy week prophecy,
six things are prophesied to literally occur,

but these have already been fulfilled Spiritually with Jesus’s first coming.

let’s look at them.

First,

to finish the transgression.

Transgressing the law is sin, but Jesus nailed the ordinances of law to the cross,

first John 3 4,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

Colossians 2 14,
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Romans 6 44,
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Second,

and to make an end of sins,

Jesus paid the wages of sin for the whole world.

John 1 29,
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

First John 2 2,
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.


Third,

and to make reconciliation for iniquity.

Jesus reconciled sinners back to God.

Second Corinthians 5 19,
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,


Fourth,

and to bring in everlasting righteousness.

The saved are sealed against all future sins, making them everlasting righteous.

Ephesians 4 30,
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Fifth,

and to seal up the vision and prophecy

Jesus, the Messiah, had been prophesied throughout the old testament,
his appearance, past and future, will fulfill all prophecies.

Act 7 37, This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
him shall ye hear, This is he,
John 1 41,
We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.


the Sixth,

and to anoint the most Holy.

God annointed Jesus when he gave him all power in heaven and earth.

Act 10 38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

Matthew 28 18,
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The church anoints Jesus when it accepts him as Lord and Savior, Israel hasn't.

"ALL" these are yet to be fulfilled for Israel.

As I’ve shown, the six things promised to be finished at the end of Daniel’s seventy weeks have already been spiritually fulfilled for the church, only the literal fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy remains unfulfilled,

this will occur at the end of the tribulations period.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Me4Him,

The context of Daneil chapter 2 say nothing on 'a thousand years', also, neither it saying the kingdom shall be last for only a thousand years.

Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen,

and one is, (ROMAN EMPIRE)and

the other is not yet come; (REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE)

and when he cometh, he must continue a "short space". (trib period)

In the days of the ROMAN EMPIRE, Jesus established the "SPIRITUAL KINGDOM", Church.

And in the days of the "REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE", (Trib) he will establish the MK.

You said "IN CHRIST" there is neither Jew/Greek, and you're correct, but explain this within the context of your interpretation:

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

These are not "IN CHRIST", YET.

 

[Grasshopper]

rjPrince

The theocratic kingdom for Israel is for 1000 years and then moves into eternity with a New Heaven and New Earth.

What happens to them while the old heavens and earth are being dissolved? Are they beamed up then put back down on the New Earth?

 

[James_Newman]

scoff scoff

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rjprince: "Jesus died to redeem those of this age and to redeem those in the OT
who had faith in God but only the blood of bulls and goats as a temporary
covering for their sins. He also died to cover the sins of an Israel
that would one day be restored and given a new heart (Deut 29:1-4; 30:1-6;
Jer 31:31-34; Rom 11:25-29; Hosea, all of it!)."

Amen, Brother Rjprince -- Preach it!

Rjprince: "How non-dispies can just ignore the literal promises of God
to Abraham and his PHYSICAL descendants is really beyond my grasp!
NOT THAT I HAVE NOT READ COVENANT THEOLOGIANS EXTENSIVELY,
I HAVE, I JUST CANNOT SEE WHY THEY DO NOT GET IT!"

Amen, Brother Rjprince -- Preach it!

Rjprince: "I used to say that Dan 9 was the key to premillenialism. Now I say
that Gen 15 is the key. Wish I had more time..."

We would have you tell us more of this.
Of course, we understand stewardship (the twin brother of
true dispensationalship). So even if it is months down the road,
if the Lord taries, we would hear more of this. Thank you.

Rjprince: "The theocratic kingdom for Israel is for 1000 years and then
moves into eternity with a New Heaven and New Earth. The post/amil
position denies the literalness of a lot more than the 1000 years!"

Sadly you are correct much Bible truth is lost when oneu deletes
a literal Revelation 20-21 from one's Bible.

DeafPosttrib: //Pharisees asked Christ, "When the kingdom of God should come?"- Luke 17:20.
Then, Chist answered them, "The kingdom of God cometh not with OBSERVATION.
Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! lo there!' for, behold the kingdom of God
is WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21//

Is God limited to one and only one Kingdom? In the scope of
eternity, the answer is YES. But over time i see three Kingdoms of
God (for others, i've said this to DeafPosttrib already, several times).

1. The Kingdom of GOd the Holy Spirit within the hearts
of the Saved of this Gentile Age.

2. The Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Messiah Jesus which
follows the Gentile Age (i.e. the next age)

3. The Eternal Kingdom of God the Father.

In the Gentile Era we who are saved are in The Kingdom of God the Holy Spirit.
In the next Era shall come the Messianic Age, the
The Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Messiah Jesus
These kingdom are merged after the MK and last for eternity.

Strange to me that many who say "one and only
one eternal Kingdom" don't even believe
in Security of the Believer: Once Saved & Always Saved.

Me4Him: //o deny that the promises to Abraham will "Literally" be fulfilled
is to also deny the "PHYSICAL KINGDOM" promised to the Jews
in the OT will be fulfilled, and that kingdom is the "MK, or "Seventh day".//

Amen, Brothre Me4Him - Preach it!

But the Partial Preterist must say that God has abandoned His first
wife, Yisrael, cause they limit God to be like humans who should only
have one wife. Serious stuff, Limiting God to man's standards.

OldRegular: "I am not going to wade through the distortions of Scripture
in the above lengthy post.

OldRegular: "It all makes about as much sense
as you stating that science rather than God determined
the length of the Day."

May did you ever miss what i said.
I accused you of using a definition of day defined by 'science'.
Since you failed to deny what i accused, i assume that you
feel guilty and that you let science define your day at 24-hours for you.

OldRegular: "I believe Genesis, don't you?"

I beleive in Genesis. I doubt if you do.
I beleive Genesis when it says that God will bless those who bless Abraham
and Abraham's seed. Abraham's seed is Messiah Jesus and the national Jewish
Israeli persons. I therefore make word selections using the fact
that the word "Christ" is an offense to the Jew.
You choose to deliberately be obstinate and defy Genesis by
using offensive terms when Jewish Israeli may be reading this very board.
Those who do not observe God's commands to be kind to Jews are subject
to physical penatlies and consequences even to their children.

I believe in Genesis. I doubt if you do.
I beleive Genesis when it says
that God has an eternal covenant with Abraham, Jacob,
and Iaasic. If God quit that covenant, He would not contine to be God.
Yet you say God has abandonded his covenant to the national Jewish Israeli
in favor of some gentiles.

OldRegular: "As noted in the OP no dispensationalist has as yet given any response
to justify discarding historic, and most importantly Biblical Doctrine
in order to embrace dispensational error."

Perchance if you would learn to do red letters and larger letters
your montra would be more interesting????


OldRegular: "Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 13:14, 15

14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing
ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see
and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and should understand with their heart, and should be converted,
and I should heal them."

Maybe it is just me, but it seems the preacher is preaching
at you and not any national Jewish Israeli.

Of South Carolina: //The Aposyle Paul also tells us in Acts 28:25-27

25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after
that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias
the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear,
and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears
are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they
should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand
with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them//

Maybe it is just me, but it seems the preacher is preaching
at you not any national Jewish Israeli.

Jesus, the Messiah of God, died for your sins Brother 'of South Carolina'.
How do i know? Cause Jesus died for the sins of all and you,
'of South Carolina', are part of all; therefore Jesus died for your sins.
Who nailed Jesus to the cross spiritually? 'of South Carolina' nailed
Jesus to the cross, spiritually speaking.
Therefore 'of South Carolina' has no right whatsoever to dis no
national Jewish Israeis.

Jesus died for the sins of all. National Jewish Israei are part of
all; therefor Jesus died for the sins of Natinal Jewish Israeli folk.

DeafPosttrib: /The context of Daneil chapter 2 say nothing on 'a thousand years',
also, neither it saying the kingdom shall be last for only a thousand years.//

The 1,000 years is mentioned in Revelation 20.
The 1,000 years time is NOT mentioned in all other Bible chapters.
Please quit wasting Webmaster's space telling us that the 1,000
years time is NOT mentioned chapter by chapter. Thank you.

The Millinnial Kingdom (MK) is denoted by other terms throughout the
Bible.

Say, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 does not mention by title: 'the Antichrist'.
How do you know that the Antichrist is intended by "man of sin" or
"son of perdition"?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to go through the Tribulation period
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

[2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
rjPrince </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The theocratic kingdom for Israel is for 1000 years and then moves into eternity with a New Heaven and New Earth.

What happens to them while the old heavens and earth are being dissolved? Are they beamed up then put back down on the New Earth? </font>[/QUOTE]Beam me up Scottie!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
May did you ever miss what i said.
I accused you of using a definition of day defined by 'science'.
Since you failed to deny what i accused, i assume that you
feel guilty and that you let science define your day at 24-hours for you.

Poor Ed

It was you who said science defined the length of the day:

Science defines a day as a 24-hour period measured one place on the earth or a 48-hour period measured all places on the earth. If one takes a Science definition of 'day' here, one has that all these resurrections take place AT THE SAME TIME. But other scriptures DO NOT teach this. There are more than one defintion of 'day'.

That was the reason I asked you if you believed Genesis. God determined the length of the day when he set the rotation of the earth. It turns once each day, given that day includes a period of light and period of darkness.

The word hour first appears in the Book of Daniel. Perhaps it was Daniel who first assigned 24 hours per day. Perhaps it was the Persians or Babylonians. I don't know. I do know that in the Book of Genesis God determined the length of the day, one rotation of the earth, whatever units of time are used.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
rjPrince </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The theocratic kingdom for Israel is for 1000 years and then moves into eternity with a New Heaven and New Earth.

What happens to them while the old heavens and earth are being dissolved? Are they beamed up then put back down on the New Earth? </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture, so far as I've discovered, doesn't explain where we are during the time earth is burned, like you "I ASSUME", we'll be in heaven.

Afte the "Seventh day" (1000 years) is over, and in the "EIGHTH DAY", satan is loose, Gog/Magog attack jerusalem, then Fire from heaven destroyes them, then the GWT Judgment, since "flesh and blood" can't inherit heaven, but "flesh and bone" can (Jesus) I'd say all the saved (from the MK) receive their "incorruptable bodies" at that time, we receive our's at the rapture, trib Saints at the "First resurrection".

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
OldRegular: "I believe Genesis, don't you?"

I beleive in Genesis. I doubt if you do.
I beleive Genesis when it says that God will bless those who bless Abraham
and Abraham's seed. Abraham's seed is Messiah Jesus and the national Jewish
Israeli persons. I therefore make word selections using the fact
that the word "Christ" is an offense to the Jew.
You choose to deliberately be obstinate and defy Genesis by
using offensive terms when Jewish Israeli may be reading this very board.
Those who do not observe God's commands to be kind to Jews are subject
to physical penatlies and consequences even to their children.

I believe in Genesis. I doubt if you do.
I beleive Genesis when it says
that God has an eternal covenant with Abraham, Jacob,
and Iaasic. If God quit that covenant, He would not contine to be God.
Yet you say God has abandonded his covenant to the national Jewish Israeli
in favor of some gentiles.

Ed I told you that I believe the Book of Genesis. Are you calling me a liar? If so I will have to report you to the moderators because I do not lie and strongly resent anyone stating or implying that I do.

Abraham's seed, in addition to Isaac, also include the children of Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.

In Genesis 12:3 we read: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

In Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The Apostle Paul tells us that that seed was Jesus Christ in Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Can you quote for me the passage of Scripture that says if anyone speaks ill of Abraham's physical descendants, which i mentioned above, they will be cursed?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Can you quote for me the passage of Scripture that says if anyone speaks ill of Abraham's physical descendants, which i mentioned above, they will be cursed?

Israel is The "FIG TREE".

Joe 1:6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree:

Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Here's the MK.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of JerusalemReturned, means "PRIOR VISIT") and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain=Kingdom): for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
A poll on the Baptist Board at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2831.html

shows:

Poll Results: #2 THE RAPTURE (20 votes.)
#2 THE RAPTURE
Choose 1
physical literal 70% (14)

spiritual literal 10% (2)

physical figurative 5% (1)

spiritual figurative 0% (0)

Apathy &/or Ignorance: I don't know or I don't care 15% (3)


So the ideas against Dispensationalism and
the Rapture are a minority position on the
board. But we can expect that that minority
will claim tribulation from the majority,
especially when the majority is right

And therefore, it must be true...


Hey Ed,

What was the majority opinion of most Southerners about the integration of Central High School. Surely they must have been right.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
3. Mystery of the Rapture

You got one thing right . The so-called pretrib rapture is a mystery not known in Scripture.