The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Jesus is going to come get me before
the Tribulation period and take me home
to live with Him.

Maranatha

Don't know how old you are but I expect there is a good chance He will get both of us before your so-called Tribulation period!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Jesus is going to come get me before
the Tribulation period and take me home
to live with Him.

Maranatha

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Jesus is going to come get me before
the Tribulation period and take me home
to live with Him.

Maranatha

Don't know how old you are but I expect there is a good chance He will get both of us before your so-called Tribulation period!

</font>[/QUOTE]Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

HOW can it be an "ABOMINATION" for the AC to sit in the temple, IF the temple IS NOT HOLY????

Would it be an "ABOMINATION" to God if the AC sat down in "MCDONALD'S"????

According the parables of the "FIG TREES", we have about six years, or less, for "SOMETHING" to happen or scripture is going to be "WRONG".


Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Which one are you betting on???

 

[Me4Him]

ED, Deafpostrib, Old regular

I believe I've meet some of the most "Spiritually Bankrupt" people on BB.com than any other "Christian board" I've visited.

Folks that ask questions gets answers/learn, but I've met some who never ask questions, they already "know it all", and express it in "opinions", never with scripture.

Personally, I'm afraid to "speak for God" when he hasn't told me what to speak, people "DIE" for that "transgression", but evidently some don't "fear God".

Jer 28:11 And Hananiah spake in the presence of all the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all nations within the space of two full years. And the prophet Jeremiah went his way.

Jer 28:15 Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet, Hear now, Hananiah; The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie.

16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.

I post at "Zolaboard" under the heading "Interaction", General discussion, Questions and Answers, Debates, and you'll find a group of people there who are both "Jews/Gentile" posting both Jewish/Christian interpretation of scripture, and all willing to ask/answer/learn, Check it out.

http://www.levitt.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Ed,

When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the second coming. Nation Jewish Israeli will be shocked and weeping, will their sins be forgiven? NO! All of them will be cast away into everlasting fire because of blind and reject Christ as their messiah.

Ro 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

Being "born a Jews" doesn't "automatically" make you saved, "Faith in Jesus" is still the "only way".

OR... unless if any nation Jewish Israeli repented of sin, and believe Jesus Christ as Messiah DURING great tribulaiton under this present age, can be forgiven of sins, and be saved before Christ comes.

YES, but because they wait until the tribulations before they believe, God chastises them by making them "Physically die" under the AC, rather than a "Spiritual death" as the church does.

Jew demanded "physical signs and wonders" from Jesus as proof he was the Messiah, so God, in effect, says prove to me you want Jesus's salvation by being willing to "physically die" for his salvation as Jesus died for your salvation.

That's God's chastisement.

What IF a nation Jewish Israeli remain blind and not believe Jesus Christ till by the time Christ comes, then it be TOO LATE for that person to have a chance to repent of sins and accept Christ, that person will be caught away as thief in the night, then cast away into the lake of fire at Christ's coming.

They go to hell along with everyone else, every sin must be paid for and JESUS is the ONLY ONE" who can pay for sins, unless the person pays themselves, which means they go to hell.

I am asking you, give me where a scripturein the Bible to support your comment on nation Jewish Israeli will again have animal sacrifices or offerings during great tribulaiton - PLEASE?

The sacrifices under the OT "DID NOT" pay the wages of sin, only Jesus can do that, so if they resume sacrifices or not, it doesn't matter, it won't pay the wages of their sins.

The temple will be rebuild, sacrifices resumed, BUT, the AC will stop them, and with no where to turn, Jews will have to "TRUST" in the only one left to trust in, JESUS.

Joseph was a "foreshadow" of Jesus, his brothers sold him, he went to the Gentiles (Egypt) married a Gentile "woman", (Church, bride) had children by her, (Christians) and in a time of famine, had the "ONLY BREAD" (bread of life) in the world to feed "ISRAEL", so the Jews has "NO CHOICE" but to go to Joseph for "BREAD".

Am 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

The AC isn't going to allow the "preaching of the Gospel", or Jewish sacrifices either, JESUS will be their only "HOPE", for their "BREAD OF LIFE".

Get the picture???

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPostrrib: //When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the second coming.
Nation Jewish Israeli will be shocked and weeping,
will their sins be forgiven? NO! All of them will be cast
away into everlasting fire because of blind and
reject Christ as their messiah.//

Your prophecy is un-scriptural and false.

I quote from my previous post: 13 Mysteries of the Bible
point to the varacity (correctness) of the Pretribularion Rapture:
--------------------------------------------
...

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.
--------------------------------------------

Romans 1126a (nKJV): And so all Israel will be saved,

The Pretribulatin Rapture and the Tribulation Period (as I have
defined them earlier in this topic) are GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES
to save Israel (national Jewish Israel). Brother Me4Him has a
topic over in the ALL OTHER DENOMINATIONS Forum
with much scripute and a total delineation of the
GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES.

Ed, quote:
---
National Jewish Israeli WILL AGAIN have animal sacrifices of offerings
---
Scripture please

Daniel 9:27. But that is where you get Antichrist and Christ mixed up

The Princes mentioned in Daniel 9:26:
1. Messiah the Prince
2. the Price who shall come (i.e. Antichrist)

DeafPosttrib: //About 14 years ago, I saw on T.V. Jews in Israel are still
doing laws, keeping Torah, commandments, and STILL doing
animal sacrifices or offerings today.//

The animal sacrifices (inculding offerings) was NOT done 14 years ago
and is not done by Jews today. The daily animal sacrifice
can only be Done on Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Since 70AD that area
has NOT been available to the national Jewish Israeli. From 70AD until
the Roman Empire disolved the Romans quartered an army there (except, of course,
when that army was off fighting). About AD650 the construction of the
Dome of the Rock (DoR) began by the Muslims. While Jerusalem changed
hands several times during the Crusades era, either the Muslims or the
Christians were in control, national Jewish Israeli were never in control.
BTW, there doesn't have to be a Temple building there to make the daily
sacrifice (animal sacrifice). But the national Jewish Israeli have to
have control of the area. The area on Temple Mount that is needed for
the Daily Sacrifice is a relative clear area North of the DoR and
about the size of the DoR. Only a small cupola is there now where Muslims
clean their feet before going into the DoR.

DeafPosttrib:
//Is the Bible still
commandment to us to doing animal sacrifices or offerings today?
No. Why? Because Jesus Christ is our lamb. We are priests
and have right to ask Christ to forgive us our sins 24 hours
daily through His blood.

Why National Jewish Israeli still doing today? Because they
reject Christ as their Messiah. They are blind. And they didn't
realized Jesus Christ was already on earth 2,000 years ago.

I believe Nation Jewish Israeli are continuing doing animal sacrifices
or offering in the great tribulation under Antichrist.
BUT, these are not under the New Testament anymore.
Christ already fulfilled it. They are blind and lost
No matter what how often they are doing animal sacrifices
or offerings during greta tribulaiton, they are still blind and lost.//

Everything you say here is true and CONFIRMS my statement:

Ed, quote:
--------------------------
National Jewish Israeli WILL AGAIN have animal sacrifices of offerings
--------------------------

NOte that this is not what God wants them to do and they are not
commanded to do it. But God knows this is what they will do and
so do you and I.

 

[menageriekeeper]

bumping this so I can have time to reread and study this.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Marking.

(i'd unmarked it)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Using the logic of DeafPosttrib in his
"two comingS" post above we could
prove the non-existance of a trinity.

There are three members of the Holy Trinity
and frequently in the Bible only one is mentioned
in a particular scripture.

So if you listed all the verses where only
one member of the Trinity is mentioned, you would have
a list like the "two comingS" post above.
That certainly does not prove there are NOT two
parts to the second coming.

Ed's counting lesson:

Method one (this is the method used by the Bible):

1a. coming of Jesus as a babe in Bethelhem
1b. return of Jesus to earth with victory over death & hell
2a. pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming of Jesus
2b. postribulation coming of Jesus to destroy antichrist
----and set up the physical Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Christ

This is an interesting yo-yo method:
1. coming of Jesus as a babe in Bethelhem
2. return of Jesus to earth with victory over death & hell
3. pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming of Jesus
4. postribulation coming of Jesus to destroy antichrist
----and set up the physical Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Christ

Here is the comptuer method:
0. coming of Jesus as a babe in Bethelhem
1. return of Jesus to earth with victory over death & hell
2. pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming of Jesus
3. postribulation coming of Jesus to destroy antichrist
----and set up the physical Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Christ

Here is the millinnial kingdom method:

1a. coming of Jesus as a babe in Bethelhem
2a. return of Jesus to earth with victory over death & hell
1b. pretribulation rapture/resurrection coming of Jesus
2b. postribulation coming of Jesus to destroy antichrist
----and set up the physical Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of Christ

There are also other ways to count events according to
elements of similarity.

There is no reading of any Bible passage (AKA: scripture)
that PREVENTS multiple phases of the Blessed Second
Coming of our Lord and Savior: Messiah Yeshua.

Amen, Brother Ed Edwards -- Preach it!

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay Brother Ed, it only took me a few days to go through this now for my questions:

Can you back up scripturally the idea that the 144,000 are returned from the rapture to witness to the earth? My view has alway been that these were to be Jews that recognized the Messiah(accepted Christ and were saved) during the tribulation.

Second, and this wasn't really covered in this discussion, if the Millinial Reign is literal and Christ himself is ruling the earth, then how is it possible for Satan to "confound the nations" when he is loosed from the pit? Along those same lines, how would it be possible for a person to remain unsaved with such a witness as the Risen Christ Himself as proof?

 

[Ed Edwards]

menageriekeeper: //Can you back up scripturally the idea that the 144,000 are
returned from the rapture to witness to the earth?
My view has alway been that these were to be Jews that recognized
the Messiah(accepted Christ and were saved) during the tribulation.//

Yes, i can show in scripture that it is likely that the
144,000 are returned from the rapture to the earth.

1. What is the relation of chapter 6 and chapter 7?

Chapter 6 ends with an earthquake on earth
(which is way lighter than the earthquate in Chapter 16).
Chapter 7 has no location given for saints until verse 9:
the throne, in heaven. Sure Rev 7:1 shows angels standing
on a stylized earth (well, maybe a direction rose in heaven?).

Some people say that the book of Revelation retells the same
story from Jesus Ascending into heaven to the end of the earth.
This retelling is retold 7 to 12 times (depending on who
is making up the story). This would make chapter 6
be the end of the world and chapter 7 being the beginning of
the Christian Era. I never have had this repetetive Revelation
explained nor seen it correlated successfully.

The other method is that the book of Revelation tells different
parts of the same story, beginning to end (with a few flash
forwards and backwards /see chapter 14/ included). This is the
way I beleive Revelation is laid out.


2. Who is mentioned after the 144,000:
I see it as those just raptured (moved from earth to heaven)
[or those just resurrected (given new bodieswhile dead) or just
raptured (changed to a new body while alive).

Revelation 7:14b (HCSB):
... These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. ...

IMHO this means that those seen are the saints raptured at the
beginning of the Tribulation Period who are yanked off the earth
by Jesus.

Then the ones mentioned before them, the 144,000 are those
selected in heaven for special service to Jesus during the
Tribulation Period. The second mention of the 144,000 in
Revelation 14:1-5 shows they follow the lamb whereever they go.

Come to think of it, i see more 'proof' for the 144,000 being
raptured Israeli than for them being evangelists.

Quickly on the Devil's rise at the end of
the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom:
Jesus will NOT be ruling all the world, only
the Israeli/Jewish state (from the Mediterranean
Sea to the Euphrates River).

 

[JackRUS]

I might also add that the demons believe and tremble. James 2:19. Just seeing Jesus will not cause one to be born again. The Jews of the first century saw Him too.

I also believe that since Jesus will rule during this period "with a rod of iron" (Rev. 19:5) that people that are not born again will rebel against Christ when Satan is loosed.

 

[JackRUS]

The Rapture and the Second Coming defined as different events at different times.

Rapture:
Christ comes in the air. 1 Thes. 4:17

2nd coming:
He comes to the Earth. Zech. 14:4

Rapture:
He comes for His saints. 1 Thes. 4:16,17

2nd coming:
He comes with His saints. 1 Thes. 3:13; Jude 14; Deut. 33:1-3

Rapture:
The Rapture is a mystery; a truth unknown in OT times. 1 Cor. 15:51

2nd coming:
The 2nd coming isn't a mystery. It is the subject of many OT prophesies. Ps. 72; Isa. 11; Zech. 14

Rapture:
Christ's coming for His saints is never said to be preceded by signs in the heavens.

2nd coming:
His coming with His saints will be heralded by signs in the heavens. Mt. 24:29-30

Rapture:
The Rapture is presented as a day of blessing.

2nd coming:
The 2nd coming is one of judgement. 2 Thes. 2:8-12; Rev. 19:17-21

Rapture:
The Rapture takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of a eye, and not witnessed by the world. 1 Cor. 5:52

2nd coming:
The 2nd coming will be witnessed worldwide. Mt. 24:27; Rev. 1:7

Rapture:
The Rapture involves the church primarily. 1 Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18

2nd coming:
The Revelation involves Israel primarily, then also the Gentile nations. Mt. 24 and 25

Rapture:
Those taken are taken for a blessing. 1 Thes. 4:13-18. And those left are left for judgement. 1 Thes. 5:1-3; Amos 5:18-20

2nd coming:
Those taken are taken for judgement, and those that left are left for a blessing. Mt. 24:37-41; Luke 17:26-37; Dan. 12:12

Rapture:
No dating system is given for events preceding the Rapture.

2nd coming:
An elaborate dating system is given for the time period of the Tribulation. It would be easy to time His coming within months if no weeks since He returns at the end of the Tribulation. Dan. 7:25; 9:27; 12:7,11-12; Rev. 11:2; 12:14; 13:5

Note. I copied this down years ago and I can't remember the author.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Thank you Brother Ed. I'm going to study on this a while longer. I think I still disagree with you about the 144 thousand coming back to earth to be witnesses, but I do believe that I held an incorrect idea of who this group was and what their purpose is.

Jack, thank you for your references. Yours will take even longer for me to go through.

I'll be back in a few days with more questions.(few day may equal a week or two)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Maybe in that time frame I can say some
things about Sister MK's second question
about the Millennial Reign.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

*Bump*

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

JackRus,

I will make comment on the compare of 'Rapture' and '2nd coming' with verses later tonight or tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

The Rapture and the Second Coming defined as different events at different times.

Note. I copied this down years ago and I can't remember the author.

Just as well you forgot. The so-called "rapture" will remain a mystery since it does not exist.:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

menageriekeeper: //Can you back up scripturally the idea that the 144,000 are
returned from the rapture to witness to the earth?
My view has alway been that these were to be Jews that recognized
the Messiah(accepted Christ and were saved) during the tribulation.//

Yes, i can show in scripture that it is likely that the
144,000 are returned from the rapture to the earth.

Three years and counting Ed and you still haven't provided any Scripture only dispensational fantasy!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Three years and counting Ed and you still haven't provided any Scripture only dispensational fantasy!

God Bless you, Elder Brother OldRegular -- and Happy New Year 2009.

The question is:

menageriekeeper: //Can you back up scripturally the idea that the 144,000 are
returned from the rapture to witness to the earth?
My view has alway been that these were to be Jews that recognized
the Messiah(accepted Christ and were saved) during the tribulation.//

That is a common view. However, the Scripture says:

Rom 11:26-27 (KJV1611 Edition):
And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.
27 For this is my couenant vnto them, when I shall take away their sinnes.

It seems that the Church Age (the one we are in now, since 33AD) continues on and yet, not all Israel has ever been saved. I believe that God has a plan to save all the Gentiles He can, get the Gentile Church out of the way at the end of the Age of the Gentiles and saved ALL ISRAEL. This can only happen IF the 144,000 are sent as missionaries to the Jewish/Israeli in the Tribulation Period Judgment upon THE GENTILE nations.

Rev 14:1-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I looked, and loe, a Lambe stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundreth fourty and foure thousand, hauing his Fathers Name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heauen, as the voice of many waters, and as the voyce of a great thunder: and I heard the voyce of harpers, harping with their harpes.
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the foure beasts, and the Elders, and no man could learne that song, but the hundreth and fourtie and foure thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women: for they are virgines: These are they which follow the Lambe whithersoeuer hee goeth: These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits vnto God, and to the Lambe.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

In Nov 2008 I was talking to a couple of Messianic Jewish men who were planning on being among the 144,000. (Some cults like the 2.8 Million stong /in the USofA/ think they will be among the 144,000 - about only 6% of the current membership - keeps them doing WORKS). They are members of Israeli military and are missionaries to the USofA.

After the gentile church leaves the earth, the only folks on earth that are saved will be the 144K. At the mid-Tribulation Period crises, the whole Jewish/Israeli nation will be saved (one at a time, like in this age) when the see that Jesus is the true Messiah, not the Antichrist trickster.