The Secret Coming/Second Coming

[BrianT]

Originally posted by M Wickens:
The rapture will occur when He returns for Believers. (Even post-tribs!) This is not a coming as Christ does not arrive at the earth. John 14:3 implies that Christ will come to take us to where He is, not to come to where we are.

John 14:3 says nothing about pretrib. It says noting about being taken to heaven.

This return will be FOR His saints as in I Thessalonians 4. Then we have the seven year tribulation, the marriage supper of the Lamb or the preperation at least, various events happening in Heaven and on Earth. Then...

The true Second coming will be WITH His saints. As in Revelation 19.

1 Thess 4 says Christ comes *with* his saints (verse 14). It says nothing about tribulation, marriage supper, etc.

The differences in these two are insurmountable.

No they aren't. In fact it takes some avoidance of certain points of scripture to create a difference.

Matthew 24 is not speaking of the rapture but is a passage of Scripture speaking of post-rapture times.

How can you say it is speaking of "post-rapture" times if it doesn't mention the rapture???

 

[weeping prophet]

I have studied Eschatology some what. Post trib, mid trib,(interesting because of "the wrath of God")thing, pre trib, partial rapture ect... I believe I could find some evidence for every position. It's funny, but our quest to understand, leads us to more questions then it does answers. The questions seem to center around events or signs and timing. Check out... what the disciples asked Jesus and tell me if you think it sounds like we would ask him the same questions. Matt.24:3 What does Jesus say in response? WP

 

[JonHenry]

I do know one thing: we can't wait until He comes back! THAT will be incredible.

 

[M Wickens]

Originally posted by BrianT:
John 14:3 says nothing about pretrib. It says noting about being taken to heaven.

John 14:3 - "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am there, there ye may be also"

Where was Jesus going? What was He preparing? At some point He would burn the Heavens and Earth with a fervant heat and recreate the heavens and earth. So why go and prepare something just to come back, destroy it, and then recreate it all over again? Was He coming back for believers to be with them or for them to be with Him?

"I Thess 4 says Christ comes *with* his saints (verse 14). It says nothing about tribulation, marriage supper, etc."

Certain elements I mentioned you find by comparing Scripture with Scripture. The Christ comes at the rapture with the saints who have already died. If He is coming *with* all of us then who is called up to meet the Lord in the air.

Also, note that here we go up and meet the Lord in the air, in Revelation we come in the sky with Him and we all descend to the Earth.

"No they aren't. In fact it takes some avoidance of certain points of scripture to create a difference."

You are right, someone is avoiding points here, we just disagree on who is avoiding what.

How can you say it is speaking of "post-rapture" times if it doesn't mention the rapture???

I don't see the word "trinity" in Scripture either, can't be true then.

In Matthew 24 look at the context. Jesus is answering the questions "When shall these things be?" In reference to the destruction of the temple. This happened as Christ said it would not long after His ascending to Heaven. The other questions were "And what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)" Christ's answer describes the character of the age we live in but more specifically it refers to the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble.

The Jews don't turn Old Testament Scripture into metaphor and turn references to the nation of Israel to mean the church as so many Christians do. Can you believe their audacity! They actually believe God will fulfill the promises He made to them in the Old Testament! So do I. They have yet to see the fulfillment of the covenants God unconditionally made with them. They questioned Jesus in regard to this. They wanted to know when the age they were in would end and the age of the fulfillment of God's promises would begin. Christ answers that question. That is the context of Matthew 24.

So, I say it is post-rapture as the Tribulation period is to discipline the Jew and bring him back to God and it is for the Gentile to punish him for persecuting the Jews and rebelling against God.

The church is not part of the tribulation, is not in Matthew 24, has to be somewhere, that somewhere is raptured, changed and dwelling with Christ in Heaven.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by M Wickens:
[QB]John 14:3 - "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am there, there ye may be also"

Where was Jesus going? What was He preparing? At some point He would burn the Heavens and Earth with a fervant heat and recreate the heavens and earth. So why go and prepare something just to come back, destroy it, and then recreate it all over again? Was He coming back for believers to be with them or for them to be with Him?

First, you have too many "there"s in your quote. The verse ends "that where I am, there ye may be also" - in other words, whereever the Lord is, we will be with him. It does not say anything about going to heaven. I personally believe that the "preparing" is not about a physical place in heaven, as God already created heaven and all of everything with *just a few words* in Genesis. Genesis 2:1 even says all God created was "finished". I don't believe Christ is up in heaven with hammer and saw, constructing apartments. Rather, I believe Christ is preparing a condition which will bring about the culmination of all things, and acting as intercessor for us - thus "preparing a place" for us.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> "I Thess 4 says Christ comes *with* his saints (verse 14). It says nothing about tribulation, marriage supper, etc."

Certain elements I mentioned you find by comparing Scripture with Scripture. The Christ comes at the rapture with the saints who have already died. If He is coming *with* all of us then who is called up to meet the Lord in the air.
</font>[/QUOTE]I never said his coming is with "all" of us. This is really simple: He comes "with" saints that have died, he comes "for" the saints still alive. 1 Thess 4:14-17 makes this clear.

Also, note that here we go up and meet the Lord in the air, in Revelation we come in the sky with Him and we all descend to the Earth.

Yes, what's the problem? This meshes with 1 Thess 4:14-17 just fine.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How can you say it is speaking of "post-rapture" times if it doesn't mention the rapture???

I don't see the word "trinity" in Scripture either, can't be true then.
</font>[/QUOTE]You miss the point. I'm not saying it can't be true, I'm saying we just can't stick the doctrine of it whereever we like without scriptural justification.

In Matthew 24 look at the context. Jesus is answering the questions "When shall these things be?"

Yes, look at the context: who is Christ answering? The apostles. The apostles are part of the church.

The Jews don't turn Old Testament Scripture into metaphor and turn references to the nation of Israel to mean the church as so many Christians do. Can you believe their audacity! They actually believe God will fulfill the promises He made to them in the Old Testament! So do I.

So do I as well. This is not about God not fulfilling promises, but fulfilling them in a way other than what the Jews expected: sound familiar?

Brian

 

[postrib]

...The rapture will occur when He returns for Believers. (Even post-tribs!) This is not a coming...

I believe the rapture is a coming:

"I will come again" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:30).

"The coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

"They that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming.

...Christ does not arrive at the earth...

I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

...John 14:3 implies that Christ will come to take us to where He is...

Note that no verse says the rapture takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Note that he didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

...This return will be FOR His saints as in I Thessalonians 4...

Note that at the rapture Jesus will come back "with" all his saints: "Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thessalonians 4:14); "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23), "to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints" (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

...Then we have the seven year tribulation...

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

...the marriage supper of the Lamb...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

...Matthew 24 is not speaking of the rapture...

In the pre-trib view, isn't Matthew 24:36-44 speaking of the rapture? Note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming.

...The church is not part of the tribulation...

Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

...is not in Matthew 24...

In the pre-trib view, in Matthew 24:36-44, isn't Jesus speaking to us Christians, whether Jew or Gentile? Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

Note that Jesus tells them: "Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). Would unbelieving Jews be hated for Jesus' name's sake?

 

[M Wickens]

Post-trib, I'm not replying to every point within your post just the the area where you stated Christians must go through the Tribulation. Didn't Paul write to the Thessalonians in order to comfort them that they would not go through the tribulation? If not, what was the purpose of the letter?

Also, the Jew will go through the tribulation to be chastened of God in order to bring the Jew back to God, the Gentile will go through to be punished for his treatment of the Jew and for following the anti-christ, what is God's purpose for the Christ going through the Tribulation?

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by M Wickens:
Post-trib, I'm not replying to every point within your post just the the area where you stated Christians must go through the Tribulation. Didn't Paul write to the Thessalonians in order to comfort them that they would not go through the tribulation? If not, what was the purpose of the letter?

The comfort is clearly stated, if you consider the context. Verse 4:13-14 says "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Paul then goes on to describe how that when Christ returns, will we again be with them! The church was being persecuted, and people were loosing their loved ones - but those of faith will be seen again! This is a great comfort to believers, a comfort non-believers don't have.

Also, the Jew will go through the tribulation to be chastened of God in order to bring the Jew back to God, the Gentile will go through to be punished for his treatment of the Jew and for following the anti-christ, what is God's purpose for the Christ going through the Tribulation?

What was God's purpose for having Israel present in Egypt during the plagues, instead of taking Israel out first?

 

[M Wickens]

My apologies. I got the context of the passage in question mixed up with another. I stand corrected. However, the mention of Christ in I Thess is speaking about the rapture.

Your reference to the Isaelites during the plagues. Have a look at the Scripture, they were unaffected by the plagues. Even if they were not, what does that have to with the church and the Tribulation?

 

[postrib]

...comfort them that they would not go through the tribulation...

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other:

"I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation" (2 Corinthians 7:4).

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Corinthians 1:3-7).

"To comfort you concerning your faith: That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:2-4).

In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our departed loved ones again: "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, 18).

...what is God's purpose for the Christ going through the Tribulation?...

I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.

I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).