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The Self-Centered God

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Pastor Larry

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And I defer one comment to Pastor Larry -- God can't make a rock He can't lift nor can He square a circle nor do anything else that is a basic contradiction of truth. So by your definition, He's not God?
What? I apologize but this makes no sense to me. By my definition God is God, and he is free. But that does not mean that he can do anything. It means he can do anything that is a proper object of his power. Therefore, he cannot make a rock so big he can't move it, or a square circle. That is absurdity, not theology.


You see freedom does not mean the ability to do anything. Let's try another example: Can God cease to exist? No, of course not. So then he is not free because there is something he cannot do?
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Webdog, you wrote:

Scripture never defines Christ's death as a "self centered" act, but as an act of love (John 15:13). The result of that love brings Him glory, yes, but it is not self centered.
1 Corinthians 13:5 teaches us that love is NOT selfish...so now you've got problems.


I have to take issue with your above statement. Hebrews clearly says Jesus went to the cross for the JOY Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Why did Jesus go to the cross? Joy. His own joy.

Now, if Jesus did, in fact, go to the cross for His joy, as Hebrews says, well…couldn’t that be considered a bit self-centered?

This discussion also begs the question: For whom did Jesus die? I’ll gladly admit what Scripture teaches—Jesus died for sinners. However, this is only the secondary reason. The primary reason Jesus died was to show God’s righteousness.

Romans 3:25-26 talks about Jesus whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So, Jesus died, primarily, for God and His glory—to show God’s righteousness—and, secondarily, to save us.

Blessings,

The Archangel
 

webdog

Active Member
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I have to take issue with your above statement. Hebrews clearly says Jesus went to the cross for the JOY Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Why did Jesus go to the cross? Joy. His own joy.
The "joy" wasn't going to the cross...but the result of going. You don't "endure" something you take joy in. I hardly call sweating blood (hematidrosis) due to extreme stress of the upcoming event Christ went through "joy".
 
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skypair

Active Member
I hope...

...it will be instructive what I have been thinking on another thread.

The only thing is, between this thread and another on the "self-centered" God, it appears to me that the God of Calvin is actually modelled after or very similar to the Greek gods -- 1) very vain, 2) "playing games" on their faithful.

3) For the faithful's part, they expected nothing but to have this understanding of what God is doing in their lives, "all is fate" (predestined by the gods)

4) There were a few "demi-gods" who, seeming to me to be like the "elect," were born of the gods on the earth to be leaders of men (Hercules, for example) 5) and this obviously being no choice of his/her own.

Do these compare favorably for you? I hope you are not offended. It really took me aback it became clearer to me. I have been trying to go back through Calvin and Augustine to find some Greek influence that would account for this. Nothing yet except a few comments by Hunt about Plato.

The other thread stresses that God does all for His glory (which many of us see a pure vanity). Basically Calvin says God creates most men to condemnation -- basically born for the "sport" of the gods and then thrown away. Calvinist believers basically believe that all of life is predetermined (both good and bad) and thus beyond their personal control and decisions -- "fate." To me, this imagery is getting clearer the more I listen to them.

So do we really want to be comparing our Lord's character with the Greek gods?

skypair
 

Rippon

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No , we really don't want to compare our Lord's character to the Greek gods . You are the only one here guilty of that SP , so knock it off .
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Centered

Jesus is centered on the Father and us the Father is centered on Jesus and others.

Let us follow the example of God and be other centered in the end God will be praised.
 

skypair

Active Member
Rippon said:
No , we really don't want to compare our Lord's character to the Greek gods . You are the only one here guilty of that SP , so knock it off .
How would you like to refute the notion point-by-point then? You know --- kinda engage us with your wisdom instead of with your emotions. :saint:

skypair
 

windcatcher

New Member
I know sometimes I feel like a mouse in a laboratory, subject to the experiments, tests, and tasks which are set up by the Director of the lab. In a sense maybe this is true; I cannot control the circumstances of my environment in which I am placed: but I am given choices, and those choices may alter the environment or my progress within.

Do we exist for God's entertainment? Do we exist only to bring Glory to God? his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts exceed the wisest understandings amongst us: We are bound by our own deminsions to define or understand him. I can be certain of certain things about Him like his sovereignty, his love, his holiness, his justice, his promises, his knowledge of all things, his protection, his power, etc. but even my understanding is limited by my own experience and my perception within the deminsion in which I was created.

I think God made us for relationship, to him and to each other. All the laws (I may need to think this deeper) regard relationship. The very laws of nature, i.e. can a circle be squared? ---regard relationship. However, God is not limited as we would think of limitations: Jesus, resurrected, still enters a room, passing in and out through its walls or doors, unseen, like no flesh we understand, yet he is real and present enough we can tenderly carress the hands that were pierced for us, and feel the deep wound in his side, where the fountain of his life poured forth to blot away our sin; and inside the room we hear his voice and feel his tenderness as he consoles us, and reminds us of our hope, and prays for and with us, and then we see him take the bread and divide it in our midst, and shares it with us. God makes the rules but is not bound by the rules: He is sovereign over all the laws of nature, and 'nature's natural laws' will bend at his pleasure: yes, if He chooses He can make a circle square .....if it suits his purpose and his will. One day he will transform this flesh from the corruptible to the incorruptible: One day, the law of gravity will lose its power and we will take flight. One day there will be no night to follow and all will be light.

Rebellion is still in the heart, doubting, questioning, disputing, and it seems the mind is full of questions which go beyond that which is our business to know. I inquire, and then am humbled at the audacity within my being to question Him who has the right to be the end of my reasoning and the focus of my faith.
 

Amy.G

New Member
windcatcher said:
I know sometimes I feel like a mouse in a laboratory, subject to the experiments, tests, and tasks which are set up by the Director of the lab. In a sense maybe this is true; I cannot control the circumstances of my environment in which I am placed: but I am given choices, and those choices may alter the environment or my progress within.

Do we exist for God's entertainment? Do we exist only to bring Glory to God? his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts exceed the wisest understandings amongst us: We are bound by our own deminsions to define or understand him. I can be certain of certain things about Him like his sovereignty, his love, his holiness, his justice, his promises, his knowledge of all things, his protection, his power, etc. but even my understanding is limited by my own experience and my perception within the deminsion in which I was created.

I think God made us for relationship, to him and to each other. All the laws (I may need to think this deeper) regard relationship. The very laws of nature, i.e. can a circle be squared? ---regard relationship. However, God is not limited as we would think of limitations: Jesus, resurrected, still enters a room, passing in and out through its walls or doors, unseen, like no flesh we understand, yet he is real and present enough we can tenderly carress the hands that were pierced for us, and feel the deep wound in his side, where the fountain of his life poured forth to blot away our sin; and inside the room we hear his voice and feel his tenderness as he consoles us, and reminds us of our hope, and prays for and with us, and then we see him take the bread and divide it in our midst, and shares it with us. God makes the rules but is not bound by the rules: He is sovereign over all the laws of nature, and 'nature's natural laws' will bend at his pleasure: yes, if He chooses He can make a circle square .....if it suits his purpose and his will. One day he will transform this flesh from the corruptible to the incorruptible: One day, the law of gravity will lose its power and we will take flight. One day there will be no night to follow and all will be light.

Rebellion is still in the heart, doubting, questioning, disputing, and it seems the mind is full of questions which go beyond that which is our business to know. I inquire, and then am humbled at the audacity within my being to question Him who has the right to be the end of my reasoning and the focus of my faith.
Beautiful post! :applause:
 

skypair

Active Member
windcatcher said:
I think God made us for relationship, to him and to each other.
AMEN, windy!!

God makes the rules but is not bound by the rules: He is sovereign over all the laws of nature, and 'nature's natural laws' will bend at his pleasure: yes, if He chooses He can make a circle square .....if it suits his purpose and his will. One day he will transform this flesh from the corruptible to the incorruptible: One day, the law of gravity will lose its power and we will take flight. One day there will be no night to follow and all will be light.
Correct. Every miracle is an intervention from God and most are due to prayer. How many miracles have you had in your life. For me -- saved, a healed heart (32 years now!), the best job in a union career field while I was "blackballed" by the union, "prayed off" a strike here, several people saved, one man's life totally turned back to Jesus,... and those are just the "majors!" I pity those who only receive what they call "grace and mercy." I have a feeling that is merely consolation enough to accept fate is playing out poorly for them.

...and it seems the mind is full of questions which go beyond that which is our business to know. I inquire, and then am humbled at the audacity within my being to question Him who has the right to be the end of my reasoning and the focus of my faith.
This is not a good attitude. God gave the Bible for the express purpose that we should KNOW Him. I don't say you find it by your own reasoning but you may inquire (unless you are like the children of Israel and have some idol between youself and God). This is the wonderful thing about confession --- when we confess our idolatry, God will hear and answer.

skypair
 

Pastor Larry

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skypair said:
...it will be instructive what I have been thinking on another thread.

SNIP


So do we really want to be comparing our Lord's character with the Greek gods?

skypair
It was wrong over there too. Why would you post it over here? You need to distinguish between fact and belief. That you believe something is not the same thing as making it a fact. I am not sure you grasp that.
 

skypair

Active Member
Pastor Larry said:
It was wrong over there too. Why would you post it over here? You need to distinguish between fact and belief. That you believe something is not the same thing as making it a fact. I am not sure you grasp that.
Larry, I know your "ox is being gored" but take a look at the comparisons. How different is a Greek god of fates and our God who "wills" everything we do and we do nothing but by His will even when we sin?

Or can you compare? Do you know anything about Greek mythology?

Do you know how vain the Greed gods were? What is the difference between them and our God if all He seeks is His own glory and pleasure? And how different if He damns most of mankind for just those purposes?!

Their gods birthed "demigods," Larry. Men who were born of sometimes incestuous relatiohships between gods and godesses or gods and men. These "demigods" made no choices to be superhuman (like Hercules) -- they were born to it, like Calvin's "elect."

See, I don't know where it comes from either. Was it Augustine, Calvin's "spiritual mentor," who lived in Alexandria (named for the Greek Emporer) under Greek and Plato's influence? See, I'm trying to comprehend why they seem so closely related.

skypair
 

Pastor Larry

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Larry, I know your "ox is being gored"
It's not my ox. It's the bible.

but take a look at the comparisons. How different is a Greek god of fates and our God who "wills" everything we do and we do nothing but by His will even when we sin?

Or can you compare? Do you know anything about Greek mythology?
My theology comes from Scripture, not from Greek gods. I don't konw much about Greek mythology because I would rather study the one true and living God through his revelation to us.

see, I'm trying to comprehend why they seem so closely related.
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the Greek gods were as you say becuase they were a distortion of the true God? I don't know whether you are right or wrong about Greek gods. I don't really care. But there is a perfectly logical explanation for it. All false religions are based on man's rejection of God as he has revealed himself.
 

skypair

Active Member
Pastor Larry said:
My theology comes from Scripture, not from Greek gods. I don't konw much about Greek mythology because I would rather study the one true and living God through his revelation to us.
That's cool. My own awareness is strictly high school stuff.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the Greek gods were as you say becuase they were a distortion of the true God?
Oh, absolutely! So is Satan!!

I don't know whether you are right or wrong about Greek gods. I don't really care. But there is a perfectly logical explanation for it. All false religions are based on man's rejection of God as he has revealed himself.
Well then I ask you -- from my description of them, does the God of Calvin resemble the gods of Greece? Surely I have at least outlined 2 models for comparison, right?

skypair
 

Pastor Larry

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from my description of them, does the God of Calvin resemble the gods of Greece?
Who is the "them"? Your description of the "God of Calvin" does not resemble the God of Calvinists very much. The God that I believe in, that I have found through Scripture does not resemble the gods of Greece as you have describe them.
 

skypair

Active Member
Pastor Larry said:
Who is the "them"? Your description of the "God of Calvin" does not resemble the God of Calvinists very much. The God that I believe in, that I have found through Scripture does not resemble the gods of Greece as you have describe them.
OK, I accept that. It wasn't a good line of reasoning to enter into on my part -- valid, maybe, but not useful. It wasn't "tested" as I had hoped it would be. Ah, well. :saint:

skypair
 

Rippon

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From Nehemiah 9:5

... Blessed be your glorious name , and may it be exalted above all blessing and praise .
 

HankD

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The scriptural proclamations and demands that God makes toward His creatures proves to me that He is indeed self centered.

His provision of Jesus Christ to fulfill/supply those impossible demands prove to me that He is also love.

Christ's obedience to the death on the cross proves that He is ultimate humility.

So, though He is totally self centered, His love and humility keep Him from telling us how wonderful He is.

THAT IS OUR JOB... and it's the most heart warming, self-satisfying job I know how to do.

Psalm 86:15 But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

HankD
 

Rippon

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Hank , what did you mean when you said that God's "love and humility keep Him from telling us how wonderful He is " ? Where did you get that notion ? Is God bashful or something ? The Bible gives no such teaching . The Lord has never held back about declaring how wondereful He is .
 
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