The Semantic stumbling block

[The Biblicist]

Roman Catholics, SDA, Methodists, Lutherans, church of Christ, etc. all deny that they believe in salvation by works. Instead, they interpret salvation by grace to be inclusive of "good works" as the necessary inseparable evidence. Therefore they restrict "fruits" to a certain abritrary standard of "good works" rather than doctrines and varying degrees of intermittant good works.

Some interpret imputed righteousenss of Christ actually to be imparted righteousness or infused righteousness so that the works of the beleiver can be interpreted as the righteousness of Christ that justifies them on judgment day through their works.

Some choose to semantically choose to describe good works on judgement day not by terms of "justification" but rather "the manifestation" of true children of God in order to escape the stigma that they believe "good works" are the ultimate cause for determing eternal destinationsn.

However, regardless of the semantics, all of them have one thing in common. All of them believe that a true born again justified child of God (not a false professor) can actually committ a certain kind of "bad" work that forfeit their eternal life/justification/regeneration. That bad work is to intentionally choose to reject their salvation by an act of free will. This action cannot be attributed to God and so it must be attributed to man. This action cannot be called a "good" work so it must fall into the category of a "bad" work as there are no other options. Hence, they do believe that salvaiton can be ultimately determined by works regardless of their denials.

However, the problem goes deeper than this. They deny that Christ provided a sufficient or satisfactory redemption to save the human will from its enmity and rebellion against God and His law (Rom. 8:7). Instead they believe the human will is the ultimate Savior of man as neither God or Satan has power to save the human will from sin. Hence, the human will retains the power of salvation or damnation rather than God's will.

However, it goes deeper. They really deny that the redemption provided by Christ is substitutionary or satisfactory or having already obtained the full redemption of all those given to Christ by the Father so that NOTHING is lost - Jn. 6:39.

When all the semantics are removed, the bottom line is that they do beleive in ultimate justification by "good" works as they do believe that "bad" works may forfeit true salvation - the bad act of freely choosing to reject Christ and thus our works are really the final determiner instead of saving, securing eternal "grace."

The true Biblical position is that our faith is kept by the power of God through grace not by our will power, but by His will power (Philip. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:5) and it is Christ's covenant obligation to the Father to LOSE NOTHING "of all" that the Father has given him - Jn. 6:39. The only ones that Christ ever loses are sons of perdition or false professors who are manifest by their anti-christ doctrinal fruits and consequences - 1 Jn. 2:19. The chief anti-christ false doctrine is "another gospel" of ultimate justification by works.

Good works are ONE kind of "fruit" that manifests true believers but that manifestion has no manifest standard but varies in degree on an intermittant basis. Other fruits that manifest salvation are doctrinal and attitude fruits. Sinless perfection is never a fruit and therefore good works may vary as much between true believers as in the fourth soil in the parable of the soils (some thirty, sixty, hundred, etc.). Spiritual maturity determines degree of manifestation rather than some abritary "characterization" model.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen...:applause:

 

[TisMe]

:applause:Atta boy, bib, Awesome stuff man.:type:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

These types of posts show that Calvinism has more in common with Islam than with Christianity, as both are examples of deterministic fatalism and about as far from the true nature and character of God as you can get.

Calvinism is a dark cloud on Christian history. I hate it with a passion.

 

[The Biblicist]

These types of posts show that Calvinism has more in common with Islam than with Christianity, as both are examples of deterministic fatalism and about as far from the true nature and character of God as you can get.

Calvinism is a dark cloud on Christian history. I hate it with a passion.

Funny, you can attack the posts but can't answer the posts! Try answering the posts.

 

[The Biblicist]

Roman Catholics, SDA, Methodists, Lutherans, church of Christ, etc. all deny that they believe in salvation by works.

This is a Fact! No untruth about their denials.

Instead, they interpret salvation by grace to be inclusive of "good works" as the necessary inseparable evidence.

This is also a fact! No untruth here!

Therefore they restrict "fruits" to a certain abritrary standard of "good works" rather than doctrines and varying degrees of intermittant good works.

This is also a fact! Their problem is the standard of the Law - sinless perfection. They believe that saints on judgement day will be judged according to thier works whether "good" or "bad" and they believe that only those doing "good" works will enter heaven. However, can any child of God do "good" works in regard to justification by the Law of God when the standard is SINLESS!

In contrast, we do not believe our works at judgement day have anything to do with justification under the Law or by the law. We believe that the sinless life of Christ has already completely, fully justified us under and by the Law so that we are "dead" to the Law's jurisdiction and penalty (Rom. 7:1-5) and shall not come into condemnation under or by the Law (Jn. 5:24).

Some interpret imputed righteousenss of Christ actually to be imparted righteousness or infused righteousness so that the works of the beleiver can be interpreted as the righteousness of Christ that justifies them on judgment day through their works.

This is also a hard fact of truth! Many deny penal substitutionary atonement but teach that the righteousness of Christ is imparted by spiritual union through our own life which if we persevere in faith will be the righteousnessness justified by the law on judgement day.

Some choose to semantically choose to describe good works on judgement day not by terms of "justification" but rather "the manifestation" of true children of God in order to escape the stigma that they believe "good works" are the ultimate cause for determing eternal destinationsn.

This is also a fact of truth! Because many treat "fruits" as only "manifested words actions" instead of its Biblical broader scope of "motives, attitudes, choices, words, actions, and doctrine" AND because they make the "fruit" of salvation a necessary prerequisite for ultimate justification some prefer to describe the judgement of saints by the law not IN ORDER TO BE justified but rather merely the MANIFESTATION of whom God has already justified. Hence, the lives of those like Lot, Solomon, the Theif on the cross would disqualify.

However, regardless of the semantics, all of them have one thing in common. All of them believe that a true born again justified child of God (not a false professor) can actually committ a certain kind of "bad" work that forfeit their eternal life/justification/regeneration. That bad work is to intentionally choose to reject their salvation by an act of free will. This action cannot be attributed to God and so it must be attributed to man. This action cannot be called a "good" work so it must fall into the category of a "bad" work as there are no other options. Hence, they do believe that salvaiton can be ultimately determined by works regardless of their denials.

This is a fact of truth! Undeniable!

However, the problem goes deeper than this. They deny that Christ provided a sufficient or satisfactory redemption to save the human will from its enmity and rebellion against God and His law (Rom. 8:7). Instead they believe the human will is the ultimate Savior of man as neither God or Satan has power to save the human will from sin. Hence, the human will retains the power of salvation or damnation rather than God's will.

Another fact of truth! They have no salvation for the human will which is really the most important aspect of human nature that needs salvation. Philippians 2:13 is completely repudiated by them. Rather their view of redemption would necessarily force them to understand this passage to say, "For it is YOUR OWN WILL that alloweth God to work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

However, it goes deeper. They really deny that the redemption provided by Christ is substitutionary or satisfactory or having already obtained the full redemption of all those given to Christ by the Father so that NOTHING is lost - Jn. 6:39.

Another undeniable fact! They must PERVERT the context and this text as their "free will" doctrine of salvation openly and profusely contradicts Christ's words in John 6:37-39. I have openly challenged them with this context many times and they are forced to pit scripture against scripture, pervert the immediate context, deny the obvious language, philosophize their way out of this text- They simply cannot provide any kind of EXEGETICAL BASIS to support their view of this text. Only perversion, pitting, ignoring, reading into it are their hermeneutical methods.

When all the semantics are removed, the bottom line is that they do beleive in ultimate justification by "good" works as they do believe that "bad" works may forfeit true salvation - the bad act of freely choosing to reject Christ and thus our works are really the final determiner instead of saving, securing eternal "grace."

Another undeniable fact! How can anyone deny that the "act of the will" is not a work! If one chooses evil that is a "bad" work. They believe a true born again justified regenerated child of God can "choose" to repudiate Christ and salvation and be utterly lost, become unborn, unjustified and go to hell due to WORKS of the flesh! Thus they believe in ultimate damnation and justification by works (choice to not reject Christ).

The true Biblical position is that our faith is kept by the power of God through grace not by our will power, but by His will power (Philip. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:5) and it is Christ's covenant obligation to the Father to LOSE NOTHING "of all" that the Father has given him - Jn. 6:39. The only ones that Christ ever loses are sons of perdition or false professors who are manifest by their anti-christ doctrinal fruits and consequences - 1 Jn. 2:19. The chief anti-christ false doctrine is "another gospel" of ultimate justification by works.

Good works are ONE kind of "fruit" that manifests true believers but that manifestion has no manifest standard but varies in degree on an intermittant basis. Other fruits that manifest salvation are doctrinal and attitude fruits. Sinless perfection is never a fruit and therefore good works may vary as much between true believers as in the fourth soil in the parable of the soils (some thirty, sixty, hundred, etc.). Spiritual maturity determines degree of manifestation rather than some abritary "characterization" model.

These are undeniable facts of truth. Those who embrace the false doctrine of unborn Christians believe in a PARTNERSHIP salvation rather than a substitutionary salvation. Their ultimate Savioir is not Christ but "free will". At best, Christ is only a submissive partner to free will but free will rules over all.

 

[BobRyan]

Roman Catholics, SDA, Methodists, Lutherans, church of Christ, etc. all deny that they believe in salvation by works.

And the Calvinist denies that he believes in limited-gospel, arbitrary-selection and/or a God of Limited love.

Many who claim that the OT is a covenant of Works - gospel -- also deny that they believe in two-gospels at times.

Instead, they interpret salvation by grace to be inclusive of "good works"

Saved by grace through faith apart from works - CREATED for good works which God has prepared that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10.

as the necessary inseparable evidence. Therefore they restrict "fruits" to a certain abritrary standard of "good works" rather than doctrines and varying degrees of intermittant good works.

By contrast Jesus said in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" and then explicitly states that this refers to "those who hear these words of mine and obey them".
Matt 7.

John explicitly says that those who do not obey - who do not keep Christ's commandments and yet claim to know and love Him - are not telling the truth 1John 2:3-9.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

And the Calvinist denies that he believes in limited-gospel, arbitrary-selection and/or a God of Limited love.

What Calvinist have you been reading???? Have you ever heard of "limited atonement"??? Apparently not! Have you ever heard of Calvinist arguing that God hated Esau???? Who in the world have you been reading?

Have you ever heard of TULIP??? Apparently not! I suggest you read more widely.

Saved by grace through faith apart from works - CREATED for good works which God has prepared that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10.

What kind of "good" works? Do you believe that all "good" works are EXTERNALS and MANIFEST VISIBLE? Perhaps you defined "bad works" just like that too! However, Jesus says that evil works begins with evil motives, thoughts, attitudes, decisions IN ADDITION TO external manifest actions. He denies that all evil works have EXTERNAL manifest actions as one can lust in their heart and yet not commit the external act, or be angry in the heart and yet not actually physically killl a person. Hence, what amount of internal is never externally manifested? You don't know and can't possibly know. What aspect are visibly manifested??? Again, you have no way of telling.

To answer "characteristically" does not solve the problem at all as more could be internallly concealed than outwardly revealed at any given time. Lot is a very good example of this imbalance between a "vexed heart" and externalized obedience. This is just the beginning of your problems. Justiifcation requires SINLESS perfection but sanctification clearly does not as it is "progressive" incomplete and the entire life is not being sanctified as sin is never sanctified. However, the justified are "dead" to the Law in regard to final judgment (Rom. 7:1-5) through the DEAD BODY of Christ. His DEAD BODY has reference to the PENALTY of sin not progressive sanctification as your doctrine must teach.

By contrast Jesus said in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" and then explicitly states that this refers to "those who hear these words of mine and obey them".

Try reading the context will ya! He is talking about LOST HYPOCRITICAL FALSE PROPHETS not the saved. But who are YOU applying it to? Not whomc CHRIST applied it to.

John explicitly says that those who do not obey - who do not keep Christ's commandments and yet claim to know and love Him - are not telling the truth 1John 2:3-9.

Precisely! He is not talking about true Christians but false ones - 1 Jn. 2:19

 

[TisMe]

What Calvinist have you been reading???? Have you ever heard of "limited atonement"??? Apparently not! Have you ever heard of Calvinist arguing that God hated Esau???? Who in the world have you been reading?

Have you ever heard of TULIP??? Apparently not! I suggest you read more widely.





What kind of "good" works? Do you believe that all "good" works are EXTERNALS and MANIFEST VISIBLE? Perhaps you defined "bad works" just like that too! However, Jesus says that evil works begins with evil motives, thoughts, attitudes, decisions IN ADDITION TO external manifest actions. He denies that all evil works have EXTERNAL manifest actions as one can lust in their heart and yet not commit the external act, or be angry in the heart and yet not actually physically killl a person. Hence, what amount of internal is never externally manifested? You don't know and can't possibly know. What aspect are visibly manifested??? Again, you have no way of telling.

To answer "characteristically" does not solve the problem at all as more could be internallly concealed than outwardly revealed at any given time. Lot is a very good example of this imbalance between a "vexed heart" and externalized obedience. This is just the beginning of your problems. Justiifcation requires SINLESS perfection but sanctification clearly does not as it is "progressive" incomplete and the entire life is not being sanctified as sin is never sanctified. However, the justified are "dead" to the Law in regard to final judgment (Rom. 7:1-5) through the DEAD BODY of Christ. His DEAD BODY has reference to the PENALTY of sin not progressive sanctification as your doctrine must teach.






Try reading the context will ya! He is talking about LOST HYPOCRITICAL FALSE PROPHETS not the saved. But who are YOU applying it to? Not whomc CHRIST applied it to.





Precisely! He is not talking about true Christians but false ones - 1 Jn. 2:19

Your responses are becoming very radically emotional and for now I must bow out of them, until you seem to tone it down a few notches. For the record you started the thread off very nicely :thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

Your responses are becoming very radically emotional and for now I must bow out of them, until you seem to tone it down a few notches. For the record you started the thread off very nicely :thumbs:

Well, apparently neither you or Bob understand Calvinism! Anyone who really understood Calvinism would never have made such statements as Bob did. There was nothing emotional at all about what I said. TULIP is the official position of a Calvinist.

Ask yourself this question. Have you ever read any post by me that claimed I was defending Calvin? Hasn't my post's dealt with just plain old Biblical exposition of scripture?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Funny, you can attack the posts but can't answer the posts! Try answering the posts.

I have answered the subject of the post many times and in many places. Try being truthful.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have answered the subject of the post many times and in many places. Try being truthful.

I am being very truthful! If you have I certainly am completely unaware of it. If I had known of any such post I would have not started another thread but would have directly addressed it.

What I do know for certain, is that you have not addressed my threads on any significant point.

 

[Yeshua1]

Roman Catholics, SDA, Methodists, Lutherans, church of Christ, etc. all deny that they believe in salvation by works. Instead, they interpret salvation by grace to be inclusive of "good works" as the necessary inseparable evidence. Therefore they restrict "fruits" to a certain abritrary standard of "good works" rather than doctrines and varying degrees of intermittant good works.

Some interpret imputed righteousenss of Christ actually to be imparted righteousness or infused righteousness so that the works of the beleiver can be interpreted as the righteousness of Christ that justifies them on judgment day through their works.

Some choose to semantically choose to describe good works on judgement day not by terms of "justification" but rather "the manifestation" of true children of God in order to escape the stigma that they believe "good works" are the ultimate cause for determing eternal destinationsn.

However, regardless of the semantics, all of them have one thing in common. All of them believe that a true born again justified child of God (not a false professor) can actually committ a certain kind of "bad" work that forfeit their eternal life/justification/regeneration. That bad work is to intentionally choose to reject their salvation by an act of free will. This action cannot be attributed to God and so it must be attributed to man. This action cannot be called a "good" work so it must fall into the category of a "bad" work as there are no other options. Hence, they do believe that salvaiton can be ultimately determined by works regardless of their denials.

However, the problem goes deeper than this. They deny that Christ provided a sufficient or satisfactory redemption to save the human will from its enmity and rebellion against God and His law (Rom. 8:7). Instead they believe the human will is the ultimate Savior of man as neither God or Satan has power to save the human will from sin. Hence, the human will retains the power of salvation or damnation rather than God's will.

However, it goes deeper. They really deny that the redemption provided by Christ is substitutionary or satisfactory or having already obtained the full redemption of all those given to Christ by the Father so that NOTHING is lost - Jn. 6:39.

When all the semantics are removed, the bottom line is that they do beleive in ultimate justification by "good" works as they do believe that "bad" works may forfeit true salvation - the bad act of freely choosing to reject Christ and thus our works are really the final determiner instead of saving, securing eternal "grace."

The true Biblical position is that our faith is kept by the power of God through grace not by our will power, but by His will power (Philip. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:5) and it is Christ's covenant obligation to the Father to LOSE NOTHING "of all" that the Father has given him - Jn. 6:39. The only ones that Christ ever loses are sons of perdition or false professors who are manifest by their anti-christ doctrinal fruits and consequences - 1 Jn. 2:19. The chief anti-christ false doctrine is "another gospel" of ultimate justification by works.

Good works are ONE kind of "fruit" that manifests true believers but that manifestion has no manifest standard but varies in degree on an intermittant basis. Other fruits that manifest salvation are doctrinal and attitude fruits. Sinless perfection is never a fruit and therefore good works may vary as much between true believers as in the fourth soil in the parable of the soils (some thirty, sixty, hundred, etc.). Spiritual maturity determines degree of manifestation rather than some abritary "characterization" model.

hebrews VERY clear in teaching to us that ALL efforts to get right with God arart from the death of jesus are USELESS, as NOTHING can or needs to be added to His work on the Cross, and any attempts to do that are an affront to Holy God!

 

[The Biblicist]

hebrews VERY clear in teaching to us that ALL efforts to get right with God arart from the death of jesus are USELESS, as NOTHING can or needs to be added to His work on the Cross, and any attempts to do that are an affront to Holy God!

Yep, I can agree whole heartedly with that summation.

 

[BobRyan]

However, regardless of the semantics, all of them have one thing in common. All of them believe that a true born again justified child of God (not a false professor) can actually committ a certain kind of "bad" work that forfeit their eternal life/justification/regeneration. That bad work is to intentionally choose to reject their salvation by an act of free will. This action cannot be attributed to God and so it must be attributed to man. This action cannot be called a "good" work so it must fall into the category of a "bad" work as there are no other options. .

All of them "believe" the teaching of Christ at the end of Matt 18 regarding "Forgiveness revoked".

All of them "believe" the teaching of scripture in Ezek 18 regarding "forgiveness revoked".

All of them "believe" the warning of Paul in Romans 11 "you should fear - for you stand only by our faith... if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"

All of them "believe" Paul in 1Cor 11 at the end where he informs us "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

All of them "believe" Gal 5:4 regrading the danger of those "separated from Christ - fallen from Grace".

All of them "believe" that Paul went far beyond "the problem of less toys in heaven" in 1Cor 6 when he warns church members to "be not deceived".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

All of them "believe" the teaching of Christ at the end of Matt 18 regarding "Forgiveness revoked".

a false interperetation as the manner of the master is the manner of the wicked servant towards his own debtors and therefore neither can possible refer to hell but only to TEMPORAL justice or "as a man soweth that shall he also reap"

All of them "believe" the teaching of scripture in Ezek 18 regarding "forgiveness revoked".

Another false intepretation! Ezekiel is talking about TEMPORAL punishment as administered in the courts of Israel according to righteous principles of God's justice system.

All of them "believe" the warning of Paul in Romans 11 "you should fear - for you stand only by our faith... if He did not spare them neither will He spare you

Another false interpetation as Romans 11 is not talking about INDIVIDUAL salvation at all, but the two possible spheres (Jews and Gentiles) where God operates in calling out a people. The fact that what was formly "cut off" is to be grafted back in "again" completely demolishes this whole argument, unless you believe INDIVIDUALS can be saved then lost and then saved. He is speaking to "you" as Gentiles the current selective sphere of God's redemptive operations today.

All of them "believe" Paul in 1Cor 11 at the end where he informs us "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

Another false intepretation! Paul is not talking about his own personal salvation status but his reward for serving God in his present calling of preaching the gospel. He formerly explained this in detail in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 as one of the masterbuilders.

All of them "believe" Gal 5:4 regrading the danger of those "separated from Christ - fallen from Grace".

Another false interpetation. I provided an indepth detailed post proving this refers in context to the DOCTRINE of grace rather than the individual's position of grace and Bob could not and did not respond.

Those who teach the above fictious interpretations are perpetrators of "another gospel" and are to be treated as "accursed" - Gal. 1:8-9

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

... the Calvinist denies that he believes in limited-gospel, arbitrary-selection and/or a God of Limited love.

Many who claim that the OT is a covenant of Works - gospel -- also deny that they believe in two-gospels at times.

The Arminian free-willers believe they are God, able to read the heart and mind of Calvinists and tell them what they actually believe. Resenting God his sovereignty they act Chief Judge of the High Court of all Grace-only believers.

And as if everything between them is just fine, SDA-Arminians like Bob Ryan will woo their worst enemies and lick the ground before their feet for one moment’s love behind the same unholy walls.