The Significance of Limited Atonement

[tyndale1946]

At the cross we see a limited atonement and election. There was nothing said to any thief but one was surely changed according to the scriptures. Where was the preacher? Where was the gospel? Where was the witness? That all claim is needed(written gospel)to save Gods elect. What about those that never hear? What happens to them?... Brother Glen

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
At the cross we see a limited atonement and election. There was nothing said to any thief but one was surely changed according to the scriptures. Where was the preacher? Where was the gospel? Where was the witness? That all claim is needed(written gospel)to save Gods elect. What about those that never hear? What happens to them?... Brother Glen

Amen, Brother Glen.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Where was the preacher? Where was the gospel? Where was the witness?

We do not know what the repentant thief had heard before being crucified during the years of Jesus's ministry. He may have heard the Sermon on the Mount as far we know.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

tfisher,

Your original question was stated like this. ‘What is the significance of the doctrine of "Limited Atonement?" For one thing is serves as a catalyst for seeing the other view which dovetails with Biblical authority. There is no argument intended by this statement.

Tfisher, two good texts dealing with this subject are: "Elect in the Son" by Dr.Robert Shank and "Chosen But Free" by Dr. Norman Geisler both from Bethany House Publisher, Minneapolis, MN.

 

[jdlongmire]

For more on Limited Atonement from a Reformed perspective:

Limited Atonement Reply from the Forum Apologetica on the Brandon Pres. Website

 

[tyndale1946]

Ken said:We do not know what the repentant thief had heard before being crucified during the years of Jesus's ministry. He may have heard the Sermon on the Mount as far we know. If I may be blunt that is the trouble with interpretation of scripture today... Scripture must interpret scripture instead of speculation! The only reason the thief was saved is because according to Romans 8:28-30 he was one of the elect chosen in eternity... Brother Glen

[ August 09, 2002, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[tfisher]

I greatly appreciate all of the information. I think I am going to have to drop out of this discussion for now to study the links and some other sources in greater detail. Please feel free to continue without me. This discussion was about to the point of being over my head anyway. I suppose James 1:5 needs to be my prayer in this area.

I will be beginning my first semester of Bible college in just a few days and, therefore, will not be able to come on the Baptist Board as often. It has been ten years since I have been in school and I am not sure what to expect.

May God richly bless you all.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Scripture must interpret scripture instead of speculation! The only reason the thief was saved is because according to Romans 8:28-30 he was one of the elect chosen in eternity

I agree, Brother Glen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

tfisher,

I am so glad that you are studying at the Bible College and you will have a lot of excellent information given you in these very, important years. I remember my years at a Bible College and I also learn much from the 'bull sessions.' God taught me many things through independent Bible study. In a way it 'sticks with you longer' when it comes directly from His spiritual enlightenment.

I will be praying for you. If you will allow me to offer something from my experience, it might help you.

After taking notes on any given subject, say on a Monday morning, it is wise to go over those notes Monday afternoon, because on Wednesday morning you will be getting more new information on the same subject. Then on Wednesday afternoon go over both Monday's notes and Wednesday mornings notes. When Friday comes take the new notes and then go over Monday, Wednesday, and Friday's notes. In this way you will know the material at any given time in case they give you a 'snap quiz.' If you do this you will not find yourself 'cramming' just before a big test comes along.

If I can be of any help to you, scholastically through books that I have, please write me at:

Dr. I. Ray Berrian
519 Main Street Apt. 1
Hellertown, PA. 18055

 

[tfisher]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

I will be praying for you.

I appreciate your kindness. It has been a big change for me and my family. My wife and I both gave up careers as underwriters with a top notch insurance company to come here. We moved from Kentucky to Florida and our nearest relative is 9 hours away. We have been a little homesick; but, we have great peace about being here. Everyone has been extremely nice here. I have already met several of the professors without even being in class yet.

I was fortunate to have enough credit hours to transfer from my previous attempt at college (when I was running from God and majoring in biology) to be able to jump strait into Bible classes without having to worry about general education requirements. Next semester I am going to try to take Theology 301 - Christian Doctrine of Revelation, God, and Soteriology. Then, maybe I will be able to participate in these discussions a little better. This semester I am taking a full load, but not anything that is overly difficult since it has been a while since I have been in school.

I also appreciate the offer of the books. That was very kind of you. If you are like me, you loan books and forget who has them.

 

[Ray Berrian]

tfisher,

Got your message. My daughter lives in Delton, Florida.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by tfisher:

Are you going to Graceville? If you are, I have several friends up there. If you'd like to meet some new people, just PM me and let me know!

Good luck with school!

SEC

 

[Bible-belted]

Unlimited Atonement from a Calvanist perspective:

The Case For Unlimited Atonement

 

[KenH]

I know there are Calvinists who believe in the theory of unlimited atonement.

I recognize them as still being Calvinists - but just barely.

Ken
Full-Blooded Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

[ August 12, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Bible-belted]

Ken,

Well then for so much (and only so much) I thank you!

 

[GH]

Not just save....RECONCILE

What is the God Almighty declaring in Colossians 1:20,21 and Eph. 2:16? "Through Him (Christ Jesus) God chose to reconcile the universe to Himself." The word reconcile/ apokatallasso is used in our Father's Word only three times...

Ajpokatallavssw (Apokatallasso)= To reconcile fully.

The Eternal One has declared far more than simply saving all men, all the Universe; He has declared in this verse that He will bring back into union with Himself the universe. He will win back ALL things to Himself. He will bring back a former state of harmony! This word is not subdue, or "to bring under", which flows from "hupo" to bring under, and is expressed in Hupotasso (to subordinate.) The language of our Father's heart is He will reconcile (reconcile fully)...He will win back ALL THINGS into union with Himself.

Hupo/ Hupotasso (To Bring Under/ to subordinate)

Our Father has purposed in Himself to win back into union with Himself the All (all things). "God chose" or determined/purposed/planned/willed that the entire creation will find its one Head in Christ Jesus. I am inclined to believe that His purpose shall stand completely fulfilled in the fulness of times.

Ajpokatallavssw (Apokatallasso)= To reconcile fully and is in union with another Greek word, Apokatastasis, which means the same as regeneration or of re-establishment from a state of ruin to a perfect state like that prior to the Fall of the first Adam.

(bible.crosswalk.com is a place where Greek words can be looked up for their original meaning.)

Love In Him, Diane

"When the eyes of the soul looking out meet the eyes of God looking in, heaven has begun right here on earth." A.W. T o z e r

 

[HeisLord]

Unfortunately, Limited Atonement is one of the most dangerous doctrines floating around in Baptist Churches today. Calvinism will absolutely kill the burden for souls. John 3:16 and many other verses contain one small word that carries such a heavy meaning...ALL.

Those who believe in a limited atonement, by choice of words, limit God. Does not His blood have the power to save? Indeed, it does. It is all powerful, all sufficient, and it was shed for all men. 2 Peter 2:1 says that the False prophets denied "the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." Their choice was to deny, and that was what God let them do.

I Timothy 2:4 "Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of truth." Verse 6: "Who gave himself a ransom for ALL."

Some erroneously believe that people can not resist the Holy Ghost when He deals with them. Agrippa did, Acts 26. The rich young ruler rejected Jesus right in His face! It can be done friend! God lovingly deals with man, but conviction does not mean conversion. Obedience is the key. Refer to Acts 7:51, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye." They evidently weren't the first to resist God.

I Peter 2:7 "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious, but unto them which be DISOBEDIENT,...a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." They disobeyed the Gospel, rejected it, and God let them have it their way.

Obviously, disobedience implies that one has not done what they were told to do.

One of my favorite verses that crush Calvinist doctrine is I Peter 4:17-18, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin with us, what shall the end be of them that OBEY NOT the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" Us isn't some country club exclusive word, it refers to those that are saved, and them refers to those who are not, those who did not obey the Gospel, those who were dealt with, but rejected it.

God is sovereign...most sovereign...Man's ability to reject God doesn't change that attribute of God one hairs breadth. For you see, He is so sovereign, He will put the unsaved, the unrepented in an eternal Hell. He will not be mocked by thier unbelief.

Dear Brother that is confused, give the gospel to all men. You can never take it to the wrong address. He died for all and is willing that none should perish.

The Bible doesn't teach limited atonement or Calvinism. Calvin didn't even teach what some claim he did. Spurgeon was not God, and I've never known anyone to think the Bible taught such doctrine unless they were reading after some of the puritan brethren. Let God be true, and every man a liar.

 

[Bible-belted]

" Unfortunately, Limited Atonement is one of the most dangerous doctrines floating around in Baptist Churches today. Calvinism will absolutely kill the burden for souls. John 3:16 and many other verses contain one small word that carries such a heavy meaning...ALL."

Please don't equate Calvanism and Limited Atonement. There are those of us who are quite Calvanistic and yet hold to Unlimited Atonement.

Certainly the more deterministic view of 5 pt Calvanism has the tendency to "kill the burdenfor souls". Nevertheless that does not represent Calvanism in its entirety, nr does it necessarily have that impact as a practial matter. Some of hte most evangelistically active churches I know are hard core calvanist.

"Those who believe in a limited atonement, by choice of words, limit God. Does not His blood have the power to save? Indeed, it does. It is all powerful, all sufficient, and it was shed for all men. 2 Peter 2:1 says that the False prophets denied "the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." Their choice was to deny, and that was what God let them do."

5 pointers would point out that indeed they don't liomit God but rather reflect the limitations that God Himself (in their view) created. They affirm that the blood is sufficient. They just deny that that it was God's intention to put that sufficiency to full use. I would be very careful about calling 5pointers false prophets. That smacks too much of a judgmentalism that is best avoided for those who are supposed to bear with one another in love.

"God is sovereign...most sovereign...Man's ability to reject God doesn't change that attribute of God one hairs breadth. For you see, He is so sovereign, He will put the unsaved, the unrepented in an eternal Hell. He will not be mocked by thier unbelief."

The problem with what you say here, of courxe, is that calvanists don't deny that man's ability to reject God doesn't impact God's sovereignty. What they deny (rightly) is man's ability to accept God. It is the idea that it is man who chooses God and not the otherway round that compromises God's sovereignty. That is the mockery.

"Dear Brother that is confused, give the gospel to all men. You can never take it to the wrong address. He died for all and is willing that none should perish."

I don't know that anyone would disagree with this. Of course it doesn;t prove anything...

"The Bible doesn't teach limited atonement or Calvinism. Calvin didn't even teach what some claim he did. Spurgeon was not God, and I've never known anyone to think the Bible taught such doctrine unless they were reading after some of the puritan brethren."

Limited Atonement? No. Calvanism? Yes. Clearly.

About Calvin, yo are correct if you mean that he was not a believer in limited atonement. At least it is not clear from his writings. You find stuff that seems to point both ways.

What's the big deal about Spurgeon anyway...

"Let God be true, and every man a liar."

Especially the Arminians.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by HeisLord:
Unfortunately, Limited Atonement is one of the most dangerous doctrines floating around in Baptist Churches today. Calvinism will absolutely kill the burden for souls. John 3:16 and many other verses contain one small word that carries such a heavy meaning...ALL.

As a Calvinist, I can say from personal experience that this is untrue. I have never met a Calvinist who didn't love souls. I am have never met a Calvinist who didn't believe that "all" meant "all." Virtually every verse you mentioned has been addressed somewhere. The search function at the top of the page will help you find it. If you have specific questions, let them be known and we will give an answer.

Strangely enough,I became a Calvinist without reading any puritans, any of Calvin, or any reformed theologian. I became a Calvinist from one book -- the Bible.

YOu are new here. Welcome. In the time between now and your next post, take a moment to catch up on what Calvinists believe. It will help you contribute to the discussion rather than making statements that have no basis in reality.

Thanks.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by HeisLord:
1)Unfortunately, Limited Atonement is one of the most dangerous doctrines floating around in Baptist Churches today. Calvinism will absolutely kill the burden for souls. John 3:16 and many other verses contain one small word that carries such a heavy meaning...ALL.

2)Those who believe in a limited atonement, by choice of words, limit God.

3)One of my favorite verses that crush Calvinist doctrine

4)give the gospel to all men.

5)The Bible doesn't teach limited atonement or Calvinism.

6)Calvin didn't even teach what some claim he did.

7)Spurgeon was not God, and I've never known anyone to think the Bible taught such doctrine unless they were reading after some of the puritan brethren.

8)Let God be true, and every man a liar.

First, I see that was your first post. Welcome to the board.

1) Particular redemption is a precious Biblial doctrine. Calvinism is a trememdous driving force for evangelism for I know when I share Biblical truth with someone it's not up to me to come up with the right words to "motivate" that person. I know if God has graciously chosen to enlighten, or save, that person and to use me in the process, then God will thus accomplish His purpose. My frailty will not be a hindrance.

"All" must be understood in the context in which it lays, as well as the overall canonical context.

2) I think you should find that it is those who teach a so-called "unlimited atonement" that actually are limiting God.

3) Biblical truth cannot be crushed despite the attempts by non-Calvinists on certain precious doctrines of God's wonderful grace.

4) Absolutely. Calvinists, such as William Carey and Adoniram Judson, spearheaded the modern missions movement. I hope you are familiar with great evangelists like Edwards, Whitefield, Spurgeon, etc. You also need to remember that Calvinism is not hyper-Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism has a different view of evangelism than Calvinism does.

5) In that statement you are badly mistaken. The Bible is Calvinistic through and through. Until God gave me spiritual eyes and spiritual ears the Bible was a closed book for me except for learning facts. Once God gave me a new heart, the doctrines that came to life for me were none other than the wonderful doctrines of God's amazing, sovereign grace. I learned that salvation is indeed by free grace, not free will.

6) Yes, he did. Anyone telling you something other than that is, frankly, either lying or needs to do further study of what Calvin wrote, just like Dave Hunt is lying(his error has been pointed out to him many times and he still refuses to admit he is wrong) about Spurgeon's view on Christ's atonement in his new book, What Love is This. If I recall correctly, Dr. James White covers the issue of Calvin's belief on particular redemption in his book, The Potter's Freedom.

7) I think you need to read more.

I think that people such as the apostle Paul(all of the apostles for that matter) and Augustine predated the Puritans. And they all taught what we have now nicknamed Calvinism(I prefer Spurgeonism as a Southern Baptist

).

8) Amen and Amen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

[ August 16, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]