The Significance of Limited Atonement

[KenH]

Originally posted by Latreia:
What's the big deal about Spurgeon anyway...

Charles Haddon Spurgeon is arguably the greatest non-inspired preacher since the first century A.D. Even Arminians quote him all the time, even though he was a thoroughgoing Calvinist. Dave Hunt even tries to use him by lying about what Spurgeon taught in Mr. Hunt's silly book in which he trashes the doctrines of God's amazing grace.

If you haven't visited www.spurgeon.org, I would encourage you to do so.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

[ August 16, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[HeisLord]

First of all, I have gone round after round with people that used to attend my church that were staunch, unabashedly, self labeled Calvanist. I didnot, I repeat, I did not, call Calvinist False prophets. I was simply using an obvious verse of Scripture that relates that Christ died for all men. And that one seems to carry much weight because He died for false prophets that He knew would deny Him.

Furthermore, I am NOT an armenian, and it is my understanding from talking to my calvinist friends that armenians believe you lose your salvation. I believe in eternal life, not because of the fifth point of the tulip theory, but because of the perseverance of the Saviour, not the saint.

We had a few 'calvinist' families in our church. And dear brethren, they were not for missions. I am familiar with the men of God that were mentioned that yes, in past times had a great thrust for evangelism. But I believe they are the exception and not the rule. I have seen with my own eyes people that adhere to the doctrines of Calvinism get flat out angry during an alter call. I've seen them mock giving out gospel tracks, I've seen them frown upon the people they didn't think were elect and prominade around like they were God's gift to christianity. That is not promoting the Gospel.

I have read after Spurgeon, and the such like, and I have some of Spurgeon's books, but I place the Bible before any man's opinion. God is God whether you or I bow to Him, and I believe He wants every man to come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

When a person doesn't get saved, just remember the obvious verses I gave. His glory is no less, and the penalty falls upon man. He has never failed, it is man that fails to respond to God. His creation testifies of Him, leaving all without an excuse. God does seek out man, and He paved the avenue to do so at Calvary.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Heislord,

I like what you said--'Conviction does not mean conversion.' That is very true. I personally, don't know how people can go through those verses you offered and still remain as though God didn't mean what He has said. You are 100% correct. I want to stand for what Christ said and not for what other quasi-theologians have to say. Can you imagine teaching what they believe in a seminary year after year. Trust me, God will judge people for erring beliefs in not here in the eternal life.

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

'Doctrines of amazing grace' to not point to the holy Scriptures and prove that God damns the majority and saves only His elect. A Doctrine of Grace is when you can show from the Word of God that God's love is boundless and reaches out to all sinners. This is a Doctrine of Grace and in keeping with His attributes of love and justice. He does not favor only some sinners. His Divine nature forbids this kind of foolish jest.

 

[HeisLord]

Mr. Berrian,

Thank you for posting. I love the Lord with all my heart.I know that had he not saw fit to save me that I would be eternally lost. I don't like to strike on controverial issues, but that is one issue that bought so much division in my church. My husband is a pastor and we have seen first hand how damning false doctrine can be. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. And I want to see my loved ones saved. I don't have to wonder if they are elect, because I know that it is God's will to come to Him. I can rest easly knowing that He loves them just as He loves me. It is my human responsibility to carry the gospel and it is man's responsibility to respond to the calling voice of God.

As my dear husband has said many times, "The door of predestination swings on the hinges of foreknowledge, not election." Amen...amen...to God be the Glory Forever.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by HeisLord:
I was simply using an obvious verse of Scripture that relates that Christ died for all men. And that one seems to carry much weight because He died for false prophets that He knew would deny Him.

No one denies this my friend. It shows how much you misunderstand limited atonement. If you have gone round and round with peopel at your church, then they didn't know it either. It is sad when you base your opinion on such a faulty knowledge of the doctrine.

Furthermore, I am NOT an armenian, and it is my understanding from talking to my calvinist friends that armenians believe you lose your salvation

Once again you miss the point. You do not even understand the 5th point. We believe that perseverance is not of the Savior (as if there is doubt) but of the saint. The Bible teaches that those who are saved will continue in faith and obedience to the end. But if you are not arminian, then what are you? We are biblicists. Everything we believe comes straight from Scripture. What are you?

We had a few 'calvinist' families in our church. And dear brethren, they were not for missions. I am familiar with the men of God that were mentioned that yes, in past times had a great thrust for evangelism. But I believe they are the exception and not the rule.

I don't know Calvinists who are not for missions. You must run in a small circle. We do believe in doing things a certian way. We believe in preaching hte gospel clearly and strongly. In fact, I know a few arminians and they are far less evangelistic than the calvinists I know. I have an arminian in my church who believes it strongly and has questioned me publicly who has not shared the gospel with someone in years. I have shared the gospel with more people in the past week than he has in the past 5 years. Every great missions movement in history was started by the calvinists. The great church planters of early america were calvinists. Your opinion simply is not informed by the facts.

When a person doesn't get saved, just remember the obvious verses I gave. His glory is no less, and the penalty falls upon man. He has never failed, it is man that fails to respond to God. His creation testifies of Him, leaving all without an excuse. God does seek out man, and He paved the avenue to do so at Calvary.

No calvinist ever said it better. But how you agree? If God desires all to be saved, how is he glorified when puny finite man spuns his offer?? It is like a millionaire offering a homeless $20 in the presence of strangers and the homeless laughs in his face. God never fails to save all whom he has decreed to be saved. Not one person has gone to hell who ever desired to come to know God. That is biblical teaching.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I'm just going to be as short and sweet about the matter as I possibly can. There is NO such thing as a "4-point Calvinist." NO SUCH THING; I am sorry. The five points either stand together or fall together! God is sovereign, or He is not. Jesus actually redeemed somebody, or He did not. Jesus actually reconciled somebody, or He did not. Jesus actually forever perfected somebody, or He did not! Jesus actually got what He paid for, or He did not!!!!!!!! The brother posted something about ALL. Well, I like that word too. Like, "ALL that the Father giveth me SHALL come to me." (John 6:37) I like the word SHALL too, brother!!! The only thing dangerous in Baptist churches are those Arminians who talk about "accepting Christ!!!" Whatever!!! The Bible never uses the phrase, and I have no authority to either!!! Jesus never told us to have "altar calls" or whatever, so I cannot either!!!! Arminianism is from the devil!! Point blank! PERIOD! Some other Calvinists may say that it's ok to be an Arminian, and it's just an alternate belief. I beg to differ with that. In fact, I greatly beg to differ with that THEORY. It is not OK to reduce the atonement Christ made as a mere possibility or CHANCE!!! What blasphemy!

""We deny the charge as unjust made by the Arminians against the wise and good Ruler of the universe. God did elect His people before the foundation of the world, long before any of them had a being, and those not elected were left out, and God is not unjust. It is blasphemy to charge a God of purity and justice with being unjust. It is a wonder that He allows His depraved creatures to live who utter such vile epithets in denouncing Him while they pretend to worship Him." - Elder John R. Daily

And pretend to worship Him they do!

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
I'm just going to be as short and sweet about the matter as I possibly can. There is NO such thing as a "4-point Calvinist." NO SUCH THING; I am sorry. The five points either stand together or fall together! God is sovereign, or He is not. Jesus actually redeemed somebody, or He did not. Jesus actually reconciled somebody, or He did not. Jesus actually forever perfected somebody, or He did not! Jesus actually got what He paid for, or He did not!!!!!!!! The brother posted something about ALL. Well, I like that word too. Like, "ALL that the Father giveth me SHALL come to me." (John 6:37) I like the word SHALL too, brother!!! The only thing dangerous in Baptist churches are those Arminians who talk about "accepting Christ!!!" Whatever!!! The Bible never uses the phrase, and I have no authority to either!!! Jesus never told us to have "altar calls" or whatever, so I cannot either!!!! Arminianism is from the devil!! Point blank! PERIOD! Some other Calvinists may say that it's ok to be an Arminian, and it's just an alternate belief. I beg to differ with that. In fact, I greatly beg to differ with that THEORY. It is not OK to reduce the atonement Christ made as a mere possibility or CHANCE!!! What blasphemy!

""We deny the charge as unjust made by the Arminians against the wise and good Ruler of the universe. God did elect His people before the foundation of the world, long before any of them had a being, and those not elected were left out, and God is not unjust. It is blasphemy to charge a God of purity and justice with being unjust. It is a wonder that He allows His depraved creatures to live who utter such vile epithets in denouncing Him while they pretend to worship Him." - Elder John R. Daily

And pretend to worship Him they do!

Yeah, I've come acrtoss this sentiment before. of course it isn't accurate, but it is prevalent. The misunderstandig of 4 ptism if you willl is also quite common. 4 pointers are not arminian. They affirm divine soveregnty, total depravity, unconditional election, irresitable grace and perseverane of the saints. But not Limited Atonement. And yes, it logically holds together too. So a lot of what you ranted is simply not applicable to 4 pointers.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
'Doctrines of amazing grace' to not point to the holy Scriptures and prove that God damns the majority and saves only His elect.

A Doctrine of Grace is when you can show from the Word of God that God's love is boundless and reaches out to all sinners.

Ray, please, please, please stop. You know that I and many other Calvinists(maybe a majority) do not believe that God will save only a minority of the people who ever live, but a majority. But I guess you do.

Ray, if God reached down and saved only one sinner that ever lived, that would be wonderful, amazing grace. I am sorry that you apparently have such a poor understanding of God's wonderful, amazing grace and also of the doctrines that teach His wonderful, amazing grace.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

[ August 17, 2002, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by HeisLord:
Furthermore, I am NOT an armenian, and it is my understanding from talking to my calvinist friends that armenians believe you lose your salvation. I believe in eternal life, not because of the fifth point of the tulip theory, but because of the perseverance of the Saviour, not the saint.

Frankly, if one is not a Calvinist, then he has no Biblical basis for believing in eternal security. He may be basing it on sentimentality, or wishful thinking, but certainly not on the Bible. If man is responsible for getting himself born again by his free will, then man is responsible to keep himself by his free will all the way to heaven - a task at which he will always fail. And man can never be born again by his free will - it's a fallen, depraved will.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
I'm just going to be as short and sweet about the matter as I possibly can. There is NO such thing as a "4-point Calvinist." NO SUCH THING; I am sorry. The five points either stand together or fall together! God is sovereign, or He is not.

As short and sweet as I can be, You are wrong ... There are a good number of people who completely adn without qualification affirm the sovereignty of God but do not believe that Jesus death was sufficient just for the elect. We believe that if God had decreed to save all men without exception in the history of humanity that no more would have been required. The atonement is not limited in its sufficiency. Most would agree that the atonement is limited in its efficiency -- that it is efficient (effective) only for those who are the elect. No one perishes whom God decreed to save. The blood did not intend to save someone who will not be saved. If you want to call that limited atonement, then fine. Probably all Calvinists are. If you want to say we believe in unlimited atonement, then understand that there are 4 point Calvinists.

The issue is whether or not God is sovereign.

 

[pinoybaptist]

How can we reconcile unlimited atonement and particular redemption ?
Sometimes I write a little computer program here and there and computer programs demand consistency in logic and syntax or it doesn't work, which is why I ask, how does one reconcile
particular redemption and unlimited atonement ?
I can reconcile unlimited atonement and universal redemption because if the blood of Christ was shed for all mankind , and here I use the generic word, then all mankind past, present, and future, have been atoned for.
If so, the next problem is, why preach the gospel at all ? If all mankind's sin have been atoned for, then surely, there is no hell anymore from which they should desire to be saved.

But, if Christ came for a particular people, to save these particular people, therefore obtaining particular redemption for them, then his blood atonement was limited to them and for them.
Then I can understand why the Lord Jesus Christ orders the gospel preached to all nations - that all for whom His blood was shed may know what great things God has done for them and therefore separate themselves from this present evil world into a body of blood-bought, blood-washed believers, edifying one another, serving one another, and praising God in their midst.

Now, if we mean that Christ's blood is efficacious for all, that is, it is the only way with which the guilty's sins can be washed away and forgiven, then that is different from unlimited atonement, that I can also understand.

I believe in the Total Depravity of man which means that the predisposition of man is to be antagonistic towards the Holy Eternal God, that Unconditional election means that God elected certain individuals unto salvation from a fallen humanity (fallen from the womb) with no racial, gender, spiritual or moral pre-conditions,
that the atonment provided by the blood of Christ for His people was Limited in scope and intent to His people alone though it is sufficient to cover all mankind's sin if God had so intended, that if God had set His eyes on an individual to save that individual then He shall work His will on that individual and the effectual call of the Holy Spirit will result in Irresistible grace bestowed on that individual breaking that individual's will, and that the saints are Preserved in the blood of Christ and will never fall away as to their eternal destination, without respect to how saintly their lives had been lived on this plane called time.

 

[tfisher]

Well, it is Saturday. I survived orientation week and will begin classes on Monday. One of the chapel services was particularly special to me. When we began to sing the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" I was overcome with the presence of the Holy Spirit and the realization of His goodness and mercy in my 14 year struggle to come to this place of obedience.

 

[tfisher]

Originally posted by HeisLord:
Dear Brother that is confused, give the gospel to all men. You can never take it to the wrong address.

That is exactly what I intend to do. My confusion does not change the Lord's command. I will be getting a BA in Theology as well as a minor in Evangelism/Preaching. Whether Calvinist or not, all I can do is the preaching under His leadership. The rest is up to Him.

 

[tfisher]

Ken,

I thought you may be interested to know that you can listen to sermons of Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, and John Calvin at www.sermonaudio.com. It is a free website.

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
How can we reconcile unlimited atonement and particular redemption ?
Sometimes I write a little computer program here and there and computer programs demand consistency in logic and syntax or it doesn't work, which is why I ask, how does one reconcile
particular redemption and unlimited atonement ?
I can reconcile unlimited atonement and universal redemption because if the blood of Christ was shed for all mankind , and here I use the generic word, then all mankind past, present, and future, have been atoned for.
If so, the next problem is, why preach the gospel at all ? If all mankind's sin have been atoned for, then surely, there is no hell anymore from which they should desire to be saved.

But, if Christ came for a particular people, to save these particular people, therefore obtaining particular redemption for them, then his blood atonement was limited to them and for them.
Then I can understand why the Lord Jesus Christ orders the gospel preached to all nations - that all for whom His blood was shed may know what great things God has done for them and therefore separate themselves from this present evil world into a body of blood-bought, blood-washed believers, edifying one another, serving one another, and praising God in their midst.

Now, if we mean that Christ's blood is efficacious for all, that is, it is the only way with which the guilty's sins can be washed away and forgiven, then that is different from unlimited atonement, that I can also understand.

I believe in the Total Depravity of man which means that the predisposition of man is to be antagonistic towards the Holy Eternal God, that Unconditional election means that God elected certain individuals unto salvation from a fallen humanity (fallen from the womb) with no racial, gender, spiritual or moral pre-conditions,
that the atonment provided by the blood of Christ for His people was Limited in scope and intent to His people alone though it is sufficient to cover all mankind's sin if God had so intended, that if God had set His eyes on an individual to save that individual then He shall work His will on that individual and the effectual call of the Holy Spirit will result in Irresistible grace bestowed on that individual breaking that individual's will, and that the saints are Preserved in the blood of Christ and will never fall away as to their eternal destination, without respect to how saintly their lives had been lived on this plane called time.

It really isn't that hard. God chooses the Son to die for the world, and then decides that the atonement be effective for only some by decreing that some should receive the gift of faith, and not others. (contrary to the above presentation it is actually limited atonement, and not unlimited atonement that calls into question the need for evangelism by minimising this point.)IOW, the provision of the atonement is unlimited. The aplication is limited.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
How can we reconcile unlimited atonement and particular redemption ?

YOur little computer programs and the like don't carry a good analogy. But understand it this way. The sufficiency of the atonement is unlimited. When we say "unlimited" that is generally what we mean, the sufficiency. Had God decided to save everyone no more would have been required. However, the efficiency -- the accomplishment -- is limited to the elect. I told a 5 point reformed baptist this and he said that was what he always believed and was taught. He couldn't believe that any thought anything else.

If God decreed to save every man who ever lived is Christ's death enough? If you answer yes, you believe in unlimited atonement as I have described it. If you answer no ... well there's a whole passal of other problems

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
[QB.

...if God reached down and saved only one sinner that ever lived, that would be wonderful, amazing grace. I am sorry that you apparently have such a poor understanding of God's wonderful, amazing grace and also of the doctrines that teach His wonderful, amazing grace.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org[/QB]

God sent his son for the whole race. Saving only one ? Who would he save ? Nobody deserves it. But he wants all to be saved, his mercy is endless, his forgiveness knows no limits, he delights in mercy, sacrificed his son for all who believe, and call his name. The doctrine of the elect doesn't stand up to what I understand from studying scripture.

 

[HeisLord]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
No one denies this my friend. It shows how much you misunderstand limited atonement. If you have gone round and round with peopel at your church, then they didn't know it either. It is sad when you base your opinion on such a faulty knowledge of the doctrine.

Sir, with your wisdom, would you please refute the verses that I offer. EVERY SINGLE Calvinist that I have personally dealt with shrugged off the verses and ran on a tangent about how God showed them, God opened their eyes, ETC. and could do very little with the Scriptures. Some of these Calvinists are beginning to sound like Mormons and the so called angel Moroni--they think they are the only people God speaks to. The fact is He speaks very plainly through His Word. It is written for the saved person, and they don't have to be theologans to understand what the Holy Spirit reveals.

Once again you miss the point. You do not even understand the 5th point. We believe that perseverance is not of the Savior (as if there is doubt) but of the saint. The Bible teaches that those who are saved will continue in faith and obedience to the end.

But why?? Not because of us, sir. But completely because of Him. And obedience?!?!? My Calvinist friends seemed to have no will until they got saved. Now they openly tell me that they have disobeyed God, missed His will. And I know that is completely possible. But according to what you said about faith and obedience, that should never be a part of a Christians life.

But if you are not arminian, then what are you? We are biblicists. Everything we believe comes straight from Scripture. What are you?

I am a Bible believing Baptist. Unashamed of the Gospel, and I witness to whosover will. Some of my Calvinist friends don't dare do that. And Sir, they will tell you that without blinking an eye. I know plenty of them! They were in our church and laughed and scoffed at passing out a Gospel tract. And again, they will tell you how fruitless doing so is.

I don't know Calvinists who are not for missions. You must run in a small circle.

Big enough to know what self acclaimed Calvinist tell me.

We do believe in doing things a certian way. We believe in preaching hte gospel clearly and strongly. In fact, I know a few arminians and they are far less evangelistic than the calvinists I know.

Only Spirit filled Christians will be a witness of the Lord, not just those who are opposed to Calvinism.

I have an arminian in my church who believes it strongly and has questioned me publicly who has not shared the gospel with someone in years. I have shared the gospel with more people in the past week than he has in the past 5 years.

SHAME ON HIM!!! Shame on anyone who has that testimony.

Every great missions movement in history was started by the calvinists. The great church planters of early america were calvinists. Your opinion simply is not informed by the facts.

But Sir, My opinion is based completely on the Self labeled Calvinist that have walked through the doors of my local church and unashamedly said that Christ didnt die for every man. Talk about Blashphemy!

No calvinist ever said it better. But how you agree? If God desires all to be saved, how is he glorified when puny finite man spuns his offer??

The penalty falls on man because He offered a gift they wouldn't receive. Don't you remember the rich young ruler? God obviously wanted to save him, but he would not repent.

It is like a millionaire offering a homeless $20 in the presence of strangers and the homeless laughs in his face.

I agree...but the Bible is clear that even those that have been brought under conviction don't always get saved.

God never fails to save all whom he has decreed to be saved. Not one person has gone to hell who ever desired to come to know God. That is biblical teaching.

{HeisLord, I have attempted to edit this post to clarify when it is you and when it is Larry speaking. If I have erred in any place, please correct it. I would have sent a private message to you, but I see you do not have that function. If you wish to read more about the quote function, please read "The Significance of...", or feel free to contact me. I hope this will contribute to the clarity of the discussion. Have a nice day. rlv}

[ August 17, 2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[HeisLord]

Originally posted by tfisher:
That is exactly what I intend to do. My confusion does not change the Lord's command. I will be getting a BA in Theology as well as a minor in Evangelism/Preaching. Whether Calvinist or not, all I can do is the preaching under His leadership. The rest is up to Him.

Without reading any commentaries of either persuasion, compare Scripture with Scripture. The Love of God is for all man. What did John the Baptist say, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the WORLD"

You see, He did not fail, HE was victorious at Calvary.

[ August 17, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]