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actually that would be the pre trib version of it, as historically many viewed the rapture as the second coming, and in a pre Mil fashion!

 

That is not the "snatching away" of dispensationalism that is the first resurrection according to covenant or historic premillennialism!

 

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And all this time I thought that dispensationalists prided themselves on "Literal Interpretation"! But when it comes to John 5:28, 29 there is a deafening silence; ignore it and it will go away!

 

When will the saints be resurrected then? As the great white thone is for Sinners ONLY!

 

?????????????

Not really.....what?? That response offered no useful interpretation toward the subject (the "rapture" or the catching away that is clearly taught in 1 Thess.4:14-17) This is a clear-cut event that scripture says will definitely happen. The timing of it??? Nobody knows except God. We must be ready and "occupy" until He calls for us. But call He will!!!!! I hope we can at least agree on THAT!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

My Answer on that

OldReg, you assume, based on your apparent doctrinal bias, (and we are all guilty of it from time to time so I'm not trying to be accusing or unfair) that the two verses above are describing ONE event that occurs simultaneously. BUT, if you compare scripture with scripture (as we should) when determining the proper interpretation of ANY passage then that just won't work with this passage in light of what the passages in 1 and 2 Thessalonians and others in Revelation teach (in regard to the Great White Throne "resurrections". If you make this passage stand alone then it creates a contradiction in scripture. There are no contradictions in scripture....only in our occasional faulty intrepretations of it. Just my humble opinion brother. Oh...and by the way...MY doctrinal bias tells me that those verses mean SOMETHING ELSE!

Bro.Greg:type:

 

The Apostle John tells us:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John lists the believers first. There are other Scripture which indicate the resurrection of believers first [1 Thessalonians 4:16]. In any event Scripture teaches a general resurrection and judgment in the passage above. As for the Great White Throne judgment where does it say that the Saints will not be there. The Book of Life is opened. Certainly Jesus christ is not double checking to see who gets cast into the lake of fire!

 

,

If one takes a close look at I Thess 4, it tells us that believers will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in he air. The inference is that we'll be caught up, and go back to heaven with Jesus. But it is merely an inference, depending on your view. Dispys will say that's it. But others could just as easily infer that we're caught up, meet Jesus in the air, then continue to the earth.

I have visited relatives whom I have not seen for a long time. When I pulled into the driveway, they came out of the house to greet me. After the hugs, we went right into the house.

The other thing the passage does not tell us is when it happens. The dispy assumption is that it's pre-trib, but the passage does not tell us that. In fact, continuing into chapter 5, is a clearly post-tribulational passage. I was always taught that the "day of the Lord" as a "thief in the night," were post-tribulational. That's pretty close to chapter 4, written before the chapter divisions were put into place.

 

! Thessalonians 1:14-17 does not teach a "snatching away" of the Church. It is simply confirming the resurrection of the believers and is a supplement to John 5:28, 29.

 

OK......

Well....I respectfully disagree.....so we'll just have to agree to disagree my brother. BUT...... I do believe that what both passages speak of is related...just not contradictory and the Bible does teach a "catching away" or being "caught up together with them in the clouds"as 1 Thes.4:17 says. As much as I like being able to come to settled, finalized, dogmatic terms regarding my dogma/doctrine, I don't think either of us can do that with this topic. However...I will continue to dogmatically teach what I believe to all who will listen.......and not disagree with me!:laugh:

All that said...as I've said on this board before....when we get to the JSOC the Lord will set us all straight on all this stuff.

And then you'll know I was right all along....when you get over the huge surprise you just had!!!:laugh::thumbsup:

Bro.Greg
P.S. I promise....I will be humble about it....no "I told ya so" outta me!!:smilewinkgrin:

 

I agree, Scripture must interpret Scripture. That being said obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. The passage in John is very clear. John says that: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth. One time period, all hear His voice, and all come forth!

The passage in Thessalonians is very clear also. It does not teach a "snatching away" but simply states that the dead in Christ shall rise first. As for Revelation there is no discussion of a resurrection as such, simply the mention of a first resurrection in Revelation 20. Recall that the first resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, has happened already. Revelation simply states: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power. Who has part in the resurrection of Jesus Christ; those who are saved. Over these the second death has no power. I would also point out that much of the book of Revelation is written in apocalyptic language and does not lend itself to literal interpretation.

 

some of us believe that will be the last day:thumbsup:

 

dead in christ shall return with jesus, those alive shall be taken up, both receiving their glorified forms...

Sinners NOT part of that resurrection, theirs will be at end of the Millinium, at the great White throne!

Snatching away IS there, just the timing issue comes into play, but THAT resurection JST for the christians!

 

So you ignore that Jesus Christ says: " for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."?

Understanding the passage from Thessalonians as amplifying the proclamation of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospel of John respects what Jesus Christ tells us. Your interpretation denies the words of Jesus Christ. That is shameful!

 

not really, as the saints shall rise in the rapture, while the sinners wait unto the general resurrection, in order to appear before great white Throne!

 

The literal interpretation of John 5:28, 29 says you are wrong. And all this time I thought dispensationalists insisted on literal interpretation of Scripture. Or is that only when it suits their doctrine?

 

that verse does NOT state that both arise at the SAME time, but that it will happen to both!

Also, to be 'literal" here, would you hold that good works help us in getting saved?

 

That is utter nonsense! The Scripture states: this hour all in the graves and all hear his voice! The only way you can get different times for the resurrection of the Saints and the lost is by reading your erroneous eschatology into the Scripture.

John 5:28
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I don't find works in the following KJV. May I ask what version says "good works"?

John 5:29

29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Those doing good works being saved, those doing evil works being lost...

I do NOT say that is what is meant, but one can read that "litera;;y
and get that meaning!

Christians alive at time of jesus return are taken up into the air to meet their Lord... At bhema Judgement seat as per paul, and get gloriied forms as per John...

is the Great White Throne judgement of sinners going on same time byyour understanding?

 

You need to read the passage again. The word works does not appear. You are reading something into the passage that is not there!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Where does Scripture talk about "bema" seat?

ALL mankind shall appear at the Great White Throne. Scripture tells us that the Book of Life is opened!!!