The Similtude of Adam's transgression

[The Biblicist]

The word "similitude" means "likeness" of Adam's transgression. A "similitude" of God is a likeness of God but is not God. A "simlitude" of Adam's transgression is a "likeness" of Adam's transgression but is not Adam's transgression. That is precisely what our opponents believe. They believe that all men sin LIKE Adam as he is the legal precedent or likeness or pattern that God judges sin by. They deny that all mankind actually existed in one human nature in the person of Adam and actually sinned when he sinned, thus denying any likeness of his sin but actually participated in that act of sin.

However, the term "similitude" refers to "even those" who died among men between Adam and Moses who did not sin in this like manner as the rest of mankind did between Adam and Moses. They did not WILLINGLY commit sin but suffered death (infants, mentally impaired). The rest who lived between Adam and Moses did sin like Adam but death is not attributed to their willful sin either as there was no REVEALED LAW that notified them that death would be the consequence EXCEPT FOR Genesis 2:17 which they could only have sinned (v. 12 Aorist tense) in the person of Adam.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

The word "similitude" means "likeness" of Adam's transgression. That is precisely what our opponents believe. They believe that all men sin LIKE Adam as he is the legal precedent or likeness or pattern that God judges sin by. They deny that all mankind actually existed in one human nature in the person of Adam and actually sinned when he sinned, thus denying any likeness of his sin but actually participated in that act of sin.

However, the term "similitude" refers to "even those" who died among men between Adam and Moses who did not sin in this like manner as the rest of mankind did between Adam and Moses. They did not WILLINGLY commit sin but suffered death (infants, mentally impaired). The rest who lived between Adam and Moses did sin like Adam but death is not attributed to their willful sin either as there was no REVEALED LAW that notified them that death would be the consequence EXCEPT FOR Genesis 2:17 which they could only have sinned (v. 12 Aorist tense) in the person of Adam.

:thumbs: :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Inspector Javert]

A "simlitude" of Adam's transgression is a "likeness" of Adam's transgression but is not Adam's transgression. That is precisely what our opponents believe. They believe that all men sin LIKE Adam as he is the legal precedent or likeness or pattern that God judges sin by.

I believe you are over-analyzing the simplicity of Scriptures. No man sinned as Adam did. It's not possible. Only Adam sinned as Adam sinned.

They deny that all mankind actually existed in one human nature in the person of Adam and actually sinned when he sinned, thus denying any likeness of his sin but actually participated in that act of sin.

Yes, because, if the Bible intended to say such a thing...it would have. But it doesn't.

However, the term "similitude" refers to "even those" who died among men between Adam and Moses who did not sin in this like manner as the rest of mankind did between Adam and Moses.

Now your Theology really has you over a barrell because if that is true, then, this second class of persons were not present sinning in and with Adam like everyone else apparently, and are thus not born Spiritually dead due to Adam's transgression as every one else is according to your Theology.
So, when, then, do they Spiritually die?

They did not WILLINGLY commit sin but suffered death

Then God had no reason to flood the Earth, punish Sodom and Gomorrah etc.. etc..

(infants, mentally impaired).

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with infants, mentally impaired etc...it has everything to do with being Gentiles/ Pagans etc...

The rest who lived between Adam and Moses did sin like Adam but death is not attributed to their willful sin either as there was no REVEALED LAW

The Scriptures say PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE
Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen

Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,

Rom 2:21
Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

that notified them that death would be the consequence EXCEPT FOR Genesis 2:17 which they could only have sinned (v. 12 Aorist tense) in the person of Adam.

It's like Paul knew that Calvies would make such statements, when he included vs. 32.
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

BY JOVE!!! they KNOW they are worthy of death!

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe you are over-analyzing the simplicity of Scriptures. No man sinned as Adam did. It's not possible. Only Adam sinned as Adam sinned.

Look at 1 Timothy 2:13! What can you draw from this text concerning the sin of Adam versus Eve? Willful intent violation versus ignorance. Hence, Paul the same author of Romans 3:14 is the same author of 1 tim. 2:13 and provides a characteristic of Adam's sin that is different from another human being (Eve). You are charging that I am "over-analyzing the simplicity of the scripture" when Paul provides characteristics of Adam's sin different from another human being both of which are found at the same place - the garden?????????

There are multitudes of human beings who are incapable of sinning in this likeness that scripture pointedly provides! Infants and mental immature or impaired cannot sin LIKE Adam in this Biblical descriptive sense - willful sin.

Remember Romans 5:12 is asserting that it is by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and Romans 5:13-14 is proving death existed between Adam and Moses as a proof of this assertion that death came by the sin of one man and was passed upon all "even those" who cannot sin LIKE Adam. Hence, death of infants and/or mentally impaired proves they are not subject to death because of their own personal actions and so the only other possible source is that "by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that death passed upon all." Mankind existed and consisted as one indivisible human nature in one man and by that one man sin entered into the world and death by sin" and this is the repeated statement over and over again found in verses 15-19 where you cannot find even once that individual sins are due to individual death but the very reverse that by one man's disobedience many "be dead" and many are "made sinners."

 

[Inspector Javert]

Look at 1 Timothy 2:13! What can you draw from this text concerning the sin of Adam versus Eve? Willful intent violation versus ignorance. Hence, Paul the same author of Romans 3:14 is the same author of 1 tim. 2:13 and provides a characteristic of Adam's sin that is different from another human being (Eve). You are charging that I am "over-analyzing the simplicity of the scripture" when Paul provides characteristics of Adam's sin different from another human being both of which are found at the same place - the garden?????????

Uh, no.................I imagine you mean vs. 14...not 13 as you incorrectly post, I'll provide it here:
1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
I agree with you completely. (I think) Eve was deceived...Adam was not. You Calvinists are so ADORABLE! :1_grouphug: you actually think we don't get that!!!....
AHH...You are SO CUUUUTTTE!!!
Adam's sin was willful.
Eve:
1.) Did not have a direct command from God....Adam did
2.) Believed that the rule given them was other than it was actually, if you read closely............Eve thinks God commanded something he did not. Here goes:

God's rule was in Genesis 2:17:
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Eve misconstrues this command in Genesis 3:3:
Gen 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Therefore, Eve was "not in the transgression" (obvious) but ADAM WAS!!! hence, he sinned willfully, Eve, in ignorance...........
Eve was fooled, Adam wasn't.

I get it dude...........I'm NOT confused....
I know Adam's sin was willful vs. Eve's, that's no secret.
You have no point......How ADORABLE YOU ARE!!!

You seem to think only Calvinists understand the distinction between Adam's sin and Eve's LOL HOW CUTE!!!!!:wavey:
You people are adorable....
hugs to you all!:1_grouphug:

There are multitudes of human beings who are incapable of sinning in this likeness that scripture pointedly provides! Infants and mental immature or impaired cannot sin LIKE Adam in this Biblical descriptive sense - willful sin.

Blah, Blah, Blah.....none of this has anything to do with infants etc..... you're adding this to Scripture. It says nothing of the sort.

Remember Romans 5:12 is asserting that it is by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin and Romans 5:13-14 is proving death existed between Adam and Moses as a proof of this assertion that death came by the sin of one man and was passed upon all "even those" who cannot sin LIKE Adam. Hence, death of infants and/or mentally impaired proves they are not subject to death because of their own personal actions and so the only other possible source is that "by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that death passed upon all."

All of this is actually TRUE!!!!! I AGREE !!!!! YAY FOR EVERYONE!!!!...what you don't actually get is that you assume the Next part...:

Mankind existed and consisted as one indivisible human nature in one man and by that one man sin entered into the world and death by sin"

NO.....that's sheer Manicheanism............it's assumption.....and it's un-biblical, un-Scriptural fecal-matter. Crap...................Bull...........Malarkey.......
Feces.......Lies......no-where in Scripture. You assume this assertion, it's not Biblical, never was.

 

[The Biblicist]

I know Adam's sin was willful vs. Eve's, that's no secret.

All of this is actually TRUE!!!!! I AGREE !!!!! YAY FOR EVERYONE!!!!...what you don't actually get is that you assume the Next part...:

NO.....that's sheer Manicheanism............it's assumption.....and it's un-biblical, un-Scriptural fecal-matter..

If you were going to prove that all men sinned when Adam sinned because the entire human nature consisted and existed in one man, one sinless man in a sinless state how would you do it any better than the repititous "by one man" sin entered the world and deathy by sin, so that death passed upon all because all men have already sinned (Aorist tense)?

How can it be done better than attributing to that "one man" action over and over again that MANY "be dead" (aorist tense) that many are "made sinners" (Aorist tense)???????

What better evidence than to select the time between Adam and Moses where no DELIVERED EDICT/COMMAND can be found to explain the UNIVERSAL penalty of death upon all men living during that period EXCEPT the EDICT that one man violated - Gen. 2:17. No other command can be found delivered to man that violation explains death universally than Genesis 2:17.

What better evidence than to point to a select type of human during this same period between Adam and Moses or "EVEN THOSE" who have absolutely no ability to sin LIKE Adam or WILLFUL sin and yet they were penalized by death??? There can be no other rational explanataion for their death than "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men because all men HAVE SINNED (Aorist tense).

There can be no better arguments presented for all mankind sinning in the one person of Adam than what is being presented in this passage.

 

[Inspector Javert]

If you were going to prove that all men sinned when Adam sinned because the entire human nature consisted and existed in one man, one sinless man in a sinless state how would you do it any better than the repititous "by one man" sin entered the world and deathy by sin, so that death passed upon all because all men have already sinned (Aorist tense)?

How can it be done better than attributing to that "one man" action over and over again that MANY "be dead" (aorist tense) that many are "made sinners" (Aorist tense)???????

What better evidence than to select the time between Adam and Moses where no DELIVERED EDICT/COMMAND can be found to explain the UNIVERSAL penalty of death upon all men living during that period EXCEPT the EDICT that one man violated - Gen. 2:17. No other command can be found delivered to man that violation explains death universally than Genesis 2:17.

What better evidence than to point to a select type of human during this same period between Adam and Moses or "EVEN THOSE" who have absolutely no ability to sin LIKE Adam or WILLFUL sin and yet they were penalized by death??? There can be no other rational explanataion for their death than "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men because all men HAVE SINNED (Aorist tense).

There can be no better arguments presented for all mankind sinning in the one person of Adam than what is being presented in this passage.

I'll humor your arguments later perhaps...but know this:

the Biblical Phrase:

"FROM Adam to Moses".....

Is about a timeline....not a person.
It's equivalent to saying:
"From the beginning...>>>>until.......Moses' Law".
Adam is actually only a beginning point of origin...his person is insignifigant.....
"Adam" is used for a tensed time-frame which Hebrew doesn't verbally express....it goes FROM ADAM--->to----->MOSES
"Adam" is synonymous with "beginning" or "origin" to Paul...that's what Hebrew thinkers do...

Their verbs don't tense for time...they are only perfect or imperfect forms....they use reference points and perfect forms like...

FROM ADAM---> to --->MOSES...

Adam isn't there because your genetic spermatozoa were present in his sin...."Adam" is there because he was the first human...

It means: "from the beginning, until Moses.".

 

[The Biblicist]

the Biblical Phrase:

"FROM Adam to Moses".....

Is about a timeline....not a person.
It's equivalent to saying:
"From the beginning...>>>>until.......Moses' Law"..

Of course!

 

[Van]

More inane claims that add up to total nonsense.

How did Adam sin? He knowingly did what He knew God said not to do.
So if we are aware of God's commands and instructions, and do otherwise, we sin in the likeness of Adam.

However, even though we have never heard of Yahweh or the Bible or God's commands and instructions contained therein, we still sin when we treat others differently than we want to be treated. Thus if we murder, or steal, or bear false witness, we are sinning, even though we do not know God said not to do those specifics. Paul lays this all out in the beginning chapters of Romans.

So the whole OP premise is bogus. We are not guilty of Adam's sin, nor is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to us. We, the fallen, suffer the consequence of Adam's sin, being made sinners, because as a consequence of Adam's sin, he was separated spiritually from God and so was Eve, when their eyes were opened. They became corrupted, unholy, and therefore separated from our holy God. And that consequence, separation and corruption is the result of God's judgment against Adam.

So we can do something and it is sin because it violates our integrity, like treating others differently than we want to be treated, and we can do the same thing with the additional knowledge that God commanded us not to do it. The first sin is not in the likeness of Adam, but the second one is. So with the giving of the Law, sin increases because in addition to the actions, we now know it is wrong. Two penalties for the same action once the Law was given.

 

[The Biblicist]

How did Adam sin? He knowingly did what He knew God said not to do.
.

Exactly, so "even those" who did not sin willfully and yet suffered death between Adam and Moses are referring to infants and other mentally impaired human beings as there is no other explanation for their death but the violation of Genesus 2:17 between Adam and Moses and their union with Adam when Adam sinned.

 

[Skandelon]

are referring to infants and other mentally impaired human beings as there is no other explanation for their death

Actually, I think it is referring to those who were not aware of the law of God, but instead who sinned against their conscience (as Romans 1-3 explain). It appears Van is making that same argument...

 

[Winman]

Actually, I think it is referring to those who were not aware of the law of God, but instead who sinned against their conscience (as Romans 1-3 explain). It appears Van is making that same argument...

Yes, these are those who sinned without law, that perish without law;

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

These are men who perished because they offended the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness also.

Romans 5 is not teaching that they died for Adam's sin. Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin.

When it says men were "made sinners", that word means assigned or designated sinners. It does not mean some sort of metamorphosis where men are transformed into sinners as many falsely teach.

Adam was the first, he was the precedent. All those who followed that sinned as he did are assigned "sinners" and the same condemnation to death was assigned them.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, these are those who sinned without law, that perish without law;

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

These are men who perished because they offended the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness also.

Romans 5 is not teaching that they died for Adam's sin. Romans 5 is not teaching Original Sin.

When it says men were "made sinners", that word means assigned or designated sinners. It does not mean some sort of metamorphosis where men are transformed into sinners as many falsely teach.

Adam was the first, he was the precedent. All those who followed that sinned as he did are assigned "sinners" and the same condemnation to death was assigned them.

I agree with most of what you said, but you must remember that those who sinned "apart from the law" where still born fallen too. In other words, their condition was still one of need, just like Adam's condition after the fall...they were born needing a savior.

 

[Winman]

I agree with most of what you said, but you must remember that those who sinned "apart from the law" where still born fallen too. In other words, their condition was still one of need, just like Adam's condition after the fall...they were born needing a savior.

Of course everyone who sins needs Jesus as their savior.

Romans 5 is not teaching that some sort of biological metamorphosis took place where men were transformed into creatures that MUST sin.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Look up the word "made" here, it is the Greek word καθίστημι kathistēmi which means to "appoint" or "set in place". It is the same word when Jesus told his disciples that if they were faithful, they would be "made" rulers.

Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

This word is not saying we are "transformed" into sinners. It is speaking of position. We are appointed or designated sinners.

As I have said many times now, Adam became the legal precedent for all those who sinned after him. They are designated "sinners" and the same condemnation to death is applied to them. This is what Romans 5 is teaching. It not teaching that man morphed into some creature that MUST sin as many falsely teach.

Likewise Jesus was the first or precedent of those who trust God. When we trust Jesus to save us we are "made" righteous. It is the very same Greek word. It doesn't mean we actually transform into a perfectly righteous person, but we are appointed, designated, or imputed righteous.

 

[Van]

:thumbs:

Actually, I think it is referring to those who were not aware of the law of God, but instead who sinned against their conscience (as Romans 1-3 explain). It appears Van is making that same argument...

Spot on. Thanks

 

[The Biblicist]

Actually, I think it is referring to those who were not aware of the law of God, but instead who sinned against their conscience (as Romans 1-3 explain). It appears Van is making that same argument...

The essence of his argument in verses 13-14 is to justify death passing upon all men. First, there must be a law that requires death if violated. No such law can be found given by God to men between Adam and Moses but Gen. 2:17 that would result in universal death.

Second, he provides a select portion of mankind during that period "even those" where death occurs even without willful sin (thus denying conscience is that law) proving they could not have violated any law, including conscience individually but only Genesis 2:17 IN ADAM and thus "by one man sin entered the world, so that death passed upon all men for all have ALREADY SINNED (Aorist tense completed action).

This is then affirmed over and over in verses 15-19 where NOT ONCE is either sin or death attributed to INDIDVIDUAL actions but to only "one man's disobedience MANY" "be dead" "made sinners."

 

[Van]

The Calvinist continues to present endless nonsense. The wages of sin is death, not the wages of the Law is death.

Then we get misrepresentation, I did not deny conscience i.e. violate our integrity and treat others differently that we would treat ourselves.

Thus if we murder, or steal, or bear false witness, we are sinning, even though we do not know God said not to do those specifics.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by Skandelon
Actually, I think it is referring to those who were not aware of the law of God, but instead who sinned against their conscience (as Romans 1-3 explain). It appears Van is making that same argument...

:thumbs:

Spot on. Thanks

The essence of his argument in verses 13-14 is to justify death passing upon all men.....

Semi-Pelagian and Calvinist alike refuse to recognize the plain gist of the context:

6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3

 

[kyredneck]

Compare:

......by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16

With:

......the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:14


....and rightly divide.

 

[Winman]

The essence of his argument in verses 13-14 is to justify death passing upon all men. First, there must be a law that requires death if violated. No such law can be found given by God to men between Adam and Moses but Gen. 2:17 that would result in universal death.

Second, he provides a select portion of mankind during that period "even those" where death occurs even without willful sin (thus denying conscience is that law) proving they could not have violated any law, including conscience individually but only Genesis 2:17 IN ADAM and thus "by one man sin entered the world, so that death passed upon all men for all have ALREADY SINNED (Aorist tense completed action).

This is then affirmed over and over in verses 15-19 where NOT ONCE is either sin or death attributed to INDIDVIDUAL actions but to only "one man's disobedience MANY" "be dead" "made sinners."

Pure nonsense. We are directly told these persons from Adam to Moses did not sin in a similar fashion as Adam. You are trying to teach that these persons sinned the EXACT same sin as Adam, you are teaching that all mankind was present in Adam's loins and literally ate of the forbidden tree as he did. Nonsense.

If your view was Paul's intent, then it would extend to all men, not men from Adam to Moses only.

Paul is showing that men from Adam to Moses had a law, which is the law written on their heart and conscience, and the proof is that they died. After that, men died because they offended Moses' law.