the sin nature - let's get deeper with it

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

Could you answer my post of March 12, 11.36 a.m.?

I presume you mean March 12, 11:32 a.m., What's there to answer? You are expressing your opinion. If you have a specific question, or even a series of questions, I'll respond, but it looked like you were arguing with yourself so I stayed out of it.

 

[Frogman]

Did they know they were lying? Had you commanded them to not lie? Probably not! Therefore, no sin was committed. Where there is no law, there is no sin!

So you believe as long as individuals do not "know" they are sinners or that they commit sin, they will be saved?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Did they know they were lying? Had you commanded them to not lie? Probably not! Therefore, no sin was committed. Where there is no law, there is no sin!

So you believe as long as individuals do not "know" they are sinners or that they commit sin, they will be saved?

Bro. Dallas

The question is not salvation, it is Sin! If there is no law, there is no sin! To an infant the only law that exists, is feed me, clean me, cuddle me, talk to me, and keep me warm. The infant stage of life is where the person learns the most basic of human skills such as recognition of sounds, voices, tastes, feelings, etc. There is no law that the infant must obey of its own free will. Parents do not command or instruct their infants that they must behave in a certain way or believe a certain thing. So until the child learns the basic skills there is no way to hold the child accountable for its actions.

 

[romanbear]

Hey Frogman;
Even Jesus had a bar mitzvah. That stage of life called the age of accountability.Usually around twelve.
Romanbear

 

[Frogman]

The Law of God is eternal.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

You will plead Jewish tradition in this but nothing else? Surely you and Yelsew know that a coming out ceremony does not initiate individuals into a sin nature, but is to initiate them into their roles as adults in this case as adult males in the Jewish society. Jesus was also presented in the Temple I believe on the eighth day according to Jewish law, this did nothing to hurt or help is nature which was divine, neither do these outward ceremonies improve the fallen nature of man. It is the regeneration of the human heart accomplished only by the Power of God that improves the nature of fallen man.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[rufus]

Adam was created innocent. He willfully sinned. That sin nature has passed to ALL his seed (Rom. 5). The sin nature in Adam's seed results in the commission of sins by Adams posterity. Before Adam sinned, he had the ability not to sin. After Adam sinned, he had the ability not not to sin.

Adam sinned and God imputed the sin nature to all his seed. All are condemned. All are dead in sin. All are blind in sin. None seek God. All are dead and die because of sin.

rufus

 

[Frogman]

I beleive Adam was created, I beleive I was reproduced. Adam was created in an 'original' righteousness, this means without the sin nature and with the all elusive 'free-will'. In this will he (Adam) sinned. Myself and all others being reproduced and not created, are reproductions of this depraved individual. Do you think it is conicidence the Bible doesn't speak of Adam and Eve having children until after the fall?

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[4study]

Hello rufus

,

Adam was created innocent. He willfully sinned. That sin nature has passed to ALL his seed (Rom. 5).

What about potential? How do you classify "the potential to sin"?

Before Adam sinned, he had the ability not to sin. After Adam sinned, he had the ability not not to sin.

Are you saying there is no difference in his nature before and after the transgression?

Adam sinned and God imputed the sin nature to all his seed.

Imputed?

 

[4study]

Frogman,

Adam was created in an 'original' righteousness, this means without the sin nature and with the all elusive 'free-will'.

I'm not sure Adam had "free will". Ability is not the issue, it's about estabilishing the boundaries. In other words, Adam wasn't created to go wondering around Creation whereever and whenever he wanted. He was responsbile to God and was accountable for his choices. In this sense, Adam is no different from us.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
The Law of God is eternal.

Bro. Dallas

At what point in your life did you first recognize, become fully, consciously aware of the Law of God?

 

[Yelsew]

I beleive Adam was created, I beleive I was reproduced.

Reproduced? What were you when you were first produced?

Adam may have been created innocent, but that does not mean that Adam was not created with the same nature to sin that has been present in mankind from the creation.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Adam may have been created innocent, but that does not mean that Adam was not created with the same nature to sin that has been present in mankind from the creation.

Yelsew, that is outright outright Biblically untrue. You are claiming that God created Adam imperfect, with a proclivity to sin. Give book, chapter, and verse to prove your point.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
The Law of God is eternal.

Bro. Dallas

At what point in your life did you first recognize, become fully, consciously aware of the Law of God? </font>[/QUOTE]Friday evening, 7:05 pm Dec. 23 1988.

I was married on Friday evening, at 7:00 pm Dec. 23 1988

 

[Yelsew]

Just as I thought, you were an adult before you fully recognized God's Law. If it took you that long, why do you insist that infants are equally subject to the law and therefore are sinful.

Yes, infants inherently have the same nature that Adam was created with, and they too will eventually sin just as Adam sinned. They however are not born already guilty of sinning, they grow into it!

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,

Did you not see the point I was making...my wedding night. Have you no sense of humor?

I knew of God's law long before my nineteenth year, which is the age I married. However, there is not any pleading ignorance at the bar of the Justice of God.

Adam was created without sin, but the ability to not sin, he failed. I was not created, I was born, reproduced through my parents as I said above, and born into this sin nature. There is no getting around it.

How do you think the Psalmist David is able to say he was formed in iniquity?

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Yes, infants inherently have the same nature that Adam was created with, and they too will eventually sin just as Adam sinned. They however are not born already guilty of sinning, they grow into it!

If you believe this, then you would also believe it is possible for man to not sin, therefore making man able to live according to the law and making the Cross of no effect, either as an Arminian, free-willer or a Calvinist. Do you believe it is possible for man to "grow into sin" then by default it is just as possible for man to not "grow into sin." This is heresy. Everywhere the Bible proclaims the depravity of man, Everywhere you deny this depravity, thereby glorifying man and not God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Reproduced? What were you when you were first produced?

A sinner...a sinner...totally depraved...without hope except that God has come...my kind to save...yet still am I without the first hope...if within my blindness...for the walls of salvation I grope.

Tis the Blood, yes, that Blood of Immanuel's veins...without a trace of man's...but the Blood of God and God alone...through the darkness the way is shown.

If not for this through Amazing Grace...forever in hell I would find my place...And here if justice were measured to me...rightly would I be.

But in the depths of Eternity...no, deeper yet His Grace we see...God has provided Himself a sacrifice...and secured the sinner...without man's price.

Tis this and this alone which shall bring me before His Eternal Throne...My own will having been broken...His Spirit He has given me as Token...In this I rest each night and day...Assured that Jesus opened up the Way.

God Bless.
Bro.Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

Did you not see the point I was making...my wedding night. Have you no sense of humor?

Why yes I did, that is why I responded with humor in kind.

I knew of God's law long before my nineteenth year, which is the age I married. However, there is not any pleading ignorance at the bar of the Justice of God.

But at what age were you first fully conscious of God's law? Was is 1 week? 2 months? 9 months? 15months? 27 months? 3 years? 5 years? The point is you do not know when you first became fully conscious of God's law because God's law was not ingrained in you. You may have learned the 10 Commandments so that you could recite them in Sunday School to earn a gold star, but you were not fully conscious of God's law until that time when you were willing to submit to it!

Adam was created without sin, but the ability to not sin, he failed. I was not created, I was born, reproduced through my parents as I said above, and born into this sin nature. There is no getting around it

You have every attribute that Adam had, with one exception, you have a belly button. Every aspect of Adam (man) is present in every descending man throughout time. You are in every way but one just like Adam. You have in you the same human nature present in Adam, and you sin just like Adam sinned. For the early part of your life you were innocent of sin, just as Adam in the early part of his life was innocent of sin. but at some point of your life, you sinned, as Adam sinned. Therefore Like Adam, who brought out of the garden a sin nature, having sinned, thus being guilty of sinning, you likewise bring with you out or your idyllic early life a sin nature, having sinned, thus it is you are guilty of sinning.

You asked,

How do you think the Psalmist David is able to say he was formed in iniquity?

I don't know unless Jesse and his wife were not married when David was conceived, but that is unlikely as David had at least 6 older male siblings. David's writings are for the most part considered by most scholars to be poetry, therefore in poetic form one can conceal the correct meaning. I do not believe that anyone is "formed in iniquity" because marriage is God's plan, and the womb is a sacred place. David was not different in essence that any other man. He was different in spirit than most other men in that God found him to be a man after his own heart. Even so, David sinned.

Yelsew said, "Yes, infants inherently have the same nature that Adam was created with, and they too will eventually sin just as Adam sinned. They however are not born already guilty of sinning, they grow into it!

Frogman replied,

If you believe this, then you would also believe it is possible for man to not sin, therefore making man able to live according to the law and making the Cross of no effect, either as an Arminian, free-willer or a Calvinist. Do you believe it is possible for man to "grow into sin" then by default it is just as possible for man to not "grow into sin." This is heresy. Everywhere the Bible proclaims the depravity of man, Everywhere you deny this depravity, thereby glorifying man and not God.

I suspect reading is not your strong suit. You skip over the thoughts I write, looking for words that you can slam back at me. Now what is difficult about each of us having the same nature that Adam had, yet being innocent of sinning until that first sin that we all do?

Yelsew said, "Reproduced? What were you when you were first produced?"

Frogman replied,

A sinner...a sinner...totally depraved...without hope except that God has come...my kind to save...yet still am I without the first hope...if within my blindness...for the walls of salvation I grope.

I guess you didn't catch my humor, so we're even. Besides, God is not in the reproduction business, because no 2 of us is alike thus reproduced does not fit the description of man.

Frogman said,

Tis the Blood, yes, that Blood of Immanuel's veins...without a trace of man's...but the Blood of God and God alone...through the darkness the way is shown.

If not for this through Amazing Grace...forever in hell I would find my place...And here if justice were measured to me...rightly would I be.

But in the depths of Eternity...no, deeper yet His Grace we see...God has provided Himself a sacrifice...and secured the sinner...without man's price.

Tis this and this alone which shall bring me before His Eternal Throne...My own will having been broken...His Spirit He has given me as Token...In this I rest each night and day...Assured that Jesus opened up the Way.

Nice poetry. Did you happen to notice in the last paragraph the phrase "My own will having been broken"? A definite sign that man has his own will, and when one comes to faith in Jesus, that will is broken so it can be molded by the hand of God

 

[rufus]

4study, with all due respect, good sir, did you actually read my post?

Created innocent, Adam had the potential to sin. When he sinned, it was actual.

Before Adam sinned, his nature was innocent. After he sinned, his nature was depraved.

Exegesis of Romans 5 results in the doctrine of imputation of sin upon Adam's posterity.

God bless, brother.

rufus