The Sin Nature

[Silverhair]

If you don't believe that we have a sin nature, then I can't explain anything to you.

On the other hand, if you do believe we have a sin nature, I can explain it very easily.

So what do you believe?

Of course we have a sin nature and I do not need you to explain it, but thanks anyway.

Your the one that lost your way when you do the sin nature only comes through the male foolishness.

 

[Charlie24]

I said that our views were similar, but it depends on how you define "nature".

Scripture tells us why Jesus was born of a virgin. It was not to escape some "sin nature" Scrioture never even mentions. It was a a sign and fulfillment of prophecy.

How'd you come to believe that sin only exists in men, or in men's bodily fluids? This is not biblical.

I gave you my definition of the 2 natures, but you don't believe it, and that's fine.

If you're looking for the exact words "nature nature" in Scripture, you'll never believe in the sin nature.

So it seems we just disagree.

 

[JonC]

I gave you my definition of the 2 natures, but you don't believe it, and that's fine.

If you're looking for the exact words "nature nature" in Scripture, you'll never believe in the sin nature.

So it seems we just disagree.

No. I agree that there is "flesh" and "spirit". I said we agreed on that part.

If by "sin nature" you mean "flesh" then we agree.

"Nature" refers to "desire or instinct". I'm not stuck on the word (I know what it means).

So we do agree that giving into the desires of the flesh as opposed to spiritual things leads to sin.

The problem is this odd 3rd category you use (splitting "flesh" into two natures...one for Adam before he sinned and to Christ and another to mankind). That is unbiblical.

Adam sinned with a nature called "flesh" in the Bible. He gave in to his desires.

 

[Charlie24]

Of course we have a sin nature and I do not need you to explain it, but thanks anyway.

Your the one that lost your way when you do the sin nature only comes through the male foolishness.

It's my belief that Mary had nothing to do with dna, or anything else, her womb was just a house for the Spirit to create Christ.

If her dna did effect Christ He would have been born with a sin nature, born in sin, He would not have qualified as the perfect, sinless, sacrifice for our sins.

 

[Charlie24]

No. I agree that there is "flesh" and "spirit". I said we agreed on that part.

If by "sin nature" you mean "flesh" then we agree.

"Nature" refers to "desire or instinct". I'm not stuck on the word (I know what it means).

So we do agree that giving into the desires of the flesh as opposed to spiritual things leads to sin.

The problem is this odd 3rd category you use (splitting "flesh" into two natures...one for Adam before he sinned and to Christ and another to mankind). That is unbiblical.

Adam sinned with a nature called "flesh" in the Bible. He gave in to his desires.

If you can't see it in Gal. 5 that I laid out, you're not going to see it.

The living proof of the sin nature is as I said before.

Place 2 toddlers in one playpen with one rubber ducky, and you'll see the sin nature in action.

 

[Charlie24]

If you can't see it in Gal. 5 that I laid out, you're not going to see it.

The living proof of the sin nature is as I said before.

Place 2 toddlers in one playpen with one rubber ducky, and you'll see the sin nature in action.

I've always been a slow learner, I admit that.

But I'm pretty sure I've learned not to start anymore threads on these forums. lol

 

[kyredneck]

The material on the "sin nature" in this OP is provided by Kenneth Wuest (1893-1961), former professor of the "New Testament Greek," Moody Bible Institute.

Paul succinctly describes our sin nature in Romans 7.

 

[kyredneck]

<delete>

 

[Silverhair]

It's my belief that Mary had nothing to do with dna, or anything else, her womb was just a house for the Spirit to create Christ.

If her dna did effect Christ He would have been born with a sin nature, born in sin, He would not have qualified as the perfect, sinless, sacrifice for our sins.

Biology tells us that the child receives DNA from both parents.

Having a sin nature means that we can sin and in the case of man we tend to that. Christ could have sinned but He chose not to thus He was sinless.

We are not judged for the sin of Adam, we are judged for our own sins.

 

[Charlie24]

Biology tells us that the child receives DNA from both parents.

Having a sin nature means that we can sin and in the case of man we tend to that. Christ could have sinned but He chose not to thus He was sinless.

We are not judged for the sin of Adam, we are judged for our own sins.

We're talking about a conception performed by the Holy Spirit here.

All the rules of science are out the window.

 

[JonC]

If you can't see it in Gal. 5 that I laid out, you're not going to see it.

The living proof of the sin nature is as I said before.

Place 2 toddlers in one playpen with one rubber ducky, and you'll see the sin nature in action.

Your illustration is perfect.

Those toddlers will both desire the rubber ducky.

You are making a disagreement where no disagreement exists and ignoring where it does.


What I disagree about is dividing what Scripture calls "flesh" (in flesh vs spirit) into two natures. Scripture does not do this and I see no need to add the subset natures into the mix.

I absolutely agree with the passages you present.

I agree that following the desires of the flesh as opposed to the things of the Spirit leads to sin.


Man (all himan beings) have desires of the flesh. This includes Adam, you, me, and Jesus. We are all tempted to follow our desires. If we set our minds on the things of the flesh in opposition to the things of the Spirit we will sin.

The difference between Jesus' nature and our nature is that Jesus came spiritually "alive" (He did not need to be born of the Spirit). His mind was set on the Spirit.


This is what I mean when I say that trying to enhance Scripture leads into error. The point of "sin nature" that is correct in those passages is that following the desires of our nature (flesh) as opposed to the spirit will cause us to sin.

But that enhancement adds an unbiblical category when applied to other passages. It causes us to deny a few important Biblical truths when applied outside of those verses.

 

[Charlie24]

Your illustration is perfect.

Those toddlers will both desire the rubber ducky.

You are making a disagreement where no disagreement exists and ignoring where it does.


What I disagree about is dividing what Scripture calls "flesh" (in flesh vs spirit) into two natures. Scripture does not do this and I see no need to add the subset natures into the mix.

I absolutely agree with the passages you present.

I agree that following the desires of the flesh as opposed to the things of the Spirit leads to sin.


Man (all himan beings) have desires of the flesh. This includes Adam, you, me, and Jesus. We are all tempted to follow our desires. If we set our minds on the things of the flesh in opposition to the things of the Spirit we will sin.

The difference between Jesus' nature and our nature is that Jesus came spiritually "alive" (He did not need to be born of the Spirit). His mind was set on the Spirit.


This is what I mean when I say that trying to enhance Scripture leads into error. The point of "sin nature" that is correct in those passages is that following the desires of our nature (flesh) as opposed to the spirit will cause us to sin.

But that enhancement adds an unbiblical category when applied to other passages. It causes us to deny a few important Biblical truths when applied outside of those verses.

All I can say is that you'll have to figure it out yourself, Jon.

This thread wasn't created to convince anyone about anything.

It was created to help those who had the same problem Paul had to understand.

Paul got the answer directly from Jesus Christ, and he gave it to us.

If you can't receive it, then you just cant.

 

[Charlie24]

Early in Paul's Christian life he was confused, he said, Rom. 7:21, that when he wanted to good, he found evil was present with him, he is referring to the sin nature. In 19--20 he is fighting a losing battle with this sin nature.

In vs 24 Paul asks the question, who shall deliver me from this body of death? He's referring to the sin nature he's fighting a losing battle with ruling over the good he wants to do. He asks the question, who shall deliver me from this body of death? The sin nature is pulling him away from God.

Then in vs. 25, Paul presents the answer to his own question, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." The answer is found in Christ.

Continuing in vs 25 he identifies the sin nature as the flesh serving the Law of Sin, but with the mind he serves the Law of God.

Here is the struggle we all face in this Christian life with the sin nature. We are presented with the choice of following Christ and therefore receiving the help of the Holy Spirit to overcome the sin nature, or not having the relationship with Christ and serving the Law of Sin that leads to spiritual death and separation from God.

 

[Charlie24]

Early in Paul's Christian life he was confused, he said, Rom. 7:21, that when he wanted to good, he found evil was present with him, he is referring to the sin nature. In 19--20 he is fighting a losing battle with this sin nature.

In vs 24 Paul asks the question, who shall deliver me from this body of death? He's referring to the sin nature he's fighting a losing battle with ruling over the good he wants to do. He asks the question, who shall deliver me from this body of death? The sin nature is pulling him away from God.

Then in vs. 25, Paul presents the answer to his own question, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." The answer is found in Christ.

Continuing in vs 25 he identifies the sin nature as the flesh serving the Law of Sin, but with the mind he serves the Law of God.

Here is the struggle we all face in this Christian life with the sin nature. We are presented with the choice of following Christ and therefore receiving the help of the Holy Spirit to overcome the sin nature, or not having the relationship with Christ and serving the Law of Sin that leads to spiritual death and separation from God.

The bottom line here of what Paul is teaching us is that the instincts and desires of the flesh (the sin nature) will lead you away from God, it's a sure spiritual death and separation from God.

We Christians can't follow the flesh, we walk this Christian life by faith in Christ, denying the desires of the flesh. This gives the Holy Spirit the green light to overcome the sin nature in us through our faith and relationship with Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

We're talking about a conception performed by the Holy Spirit here.

All the rules of science are out the window.

Based on what? Here you fall back to the RC idea that Mary was without sin.

All children are born without sin but as we grow and become aware of truth and error we fall to error/sin. Christ was born without sin as He grew and became aware He did not fall to error/sin thus was our sinless savior.

 

[Silverhair]

The bottom line here of what Paul is teaching us is that the instincts and desires of the flesh (the sin nature) will lead you away from God, it's a sure spiritual death and separation from God.

We Christians can't follow the flesh, we walk this Christian life by faith in Christ, denying the desires of the flesh. This gives the Holy Spirit the green light to overcome the sin nature in us through our faith and relationship with Christ.

When you use the words "We Christians can't follow the flesh" are you suggesting sinless perfection?

We know from our own life experience that Christians sin. As we grow in Christ we sin less but we are not sinless.

 

[Charlie24]

Based on what? Here you fall back to the RC idea that Mary was without sin.

All children are born without sin but as we grow and become aware of truth and error we fall to error/sin. Christ was born without sin as He grew and became aware He did not fall to error/sin thus was our sinless savior.

If you insist that I'm a Catholic, then to you I'm a Catholic.

No skin off my

When you use the words "We Christians can't follow the flesh" are you suggesting sinless perfection?

We know from our own life experience that Christians sin. As we grow in Christ we sin less but we are not sinless.

Paul plainly said that he had not reached sinless perfection, but he pressed forward to the mark of the prize in the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.

If Paul couldn't reach that level, how do you think any of us could?

 

[Silverhair]

If you insist that I'm a Catholic, then to you I'm a Catholic.

No skin off my


Paul plainly said that he had not reached sinless perfection, but he pressed forward to the mark of the prize in the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.

If Paul couldn't reach that level, how do you think any of us could?

Did not say you are RC? I said you are falling back into the RC view re Mary.

Did not say we could be sinless either. But when you use words such as "We Christians can't follow the flesh" when we know that we sin then it seems like you are suggesting a sinless perfection view.

 

[Charlie24]

Did not say you are RC? I said you are falling back into the RC view re Mary.

Did not say we could be sinless either. But when you use words such as "We Christians can't follow the flesh" when we know that we sin then it seems like you are suggesting a sinless perfection view.

Well now you know I'm not. At least I hope you know.

 

[JD731]

Actually the so called sin nature (this phrse is not in the KJV) can be explained by the absence of the divine nature.The divine nature is the power of God over sin in the weak fleshly body of the person who has been born once in Adam. In him, that is in Adam, he acquires a physical body and at the same time of conception he acquires a spiritual identity from God called the soul. The body of man gives him ability to function in the physical universe but Paul says in one place about the body these words, "in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing." God himself has nothing good to say about the flesh. Men must be born again and the Spirit of God then indwells our mortal bodies as both the righteousness that God requires of us and also eternal life, because he is the life of God and he is omnipresent. He can be and he is everywhere he wants to be at one time.

We can have victory over sin through the Spirit, yea, the same power of Jesus Christ while he dwelt in a weak body was, the Spirit, which indwelt in him from his conception. He is the only tripart man who was ever born of the flesh and God was his Father. This is why it is said that Jesus Christ is the ONLY begotten son of God. Adam in the OT was called the son of God (Lk 3:38) but he was a created being and not born of a woman. Now, all men since the cross of Jesus Christ and his resurrection who believes the gospel, recieves the Spirit as the gift of God and is born of God and becomes a son of God and a tripartite man, able to communicate and have a family relationship with God. We cannot occupy the heavenlies in this body from Adam that remains weak and worldly in spite of the new birth so we are waiting with blessed hope for the resurrection and the change of these bodies at the gathering together from heaven and all over the earth and our collective calling out

The created Adam - body/soul/Spirit - image of God = son of God
Adam with sin - body soul - image of Adam = Spirit separated from Adam = spiritual death - 930 yeas later soul separated from body of Adam = physical death
All Adams offspring - body/soul at birth- image of Adam = son of Adam
The birth of Jesus Christ - fleshly body from Mary/soul from God/ Spirit - image of God = Son of God
Jesus with no sin -body/soul/Spirit during his life - image of the Father = spiritual and physical death on the cross = separation first of the Spirit of God then separation of soul from body not because he sinned but because all the world had no power over sin and so they could have his Spirit.
The resurrection of Jesus Christ with the Spirit/body glorified and fitted for heaven -the firstborn from the dead
All the Father's offspring - body/soul/and/Spirit - the image of Jesus Christ who is the image of God. (trinity)

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Christ is the image of God while he is on the earth, meaning he is a tripartite man, the only one since Adam.

He 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Those tripart men born of Adam are changed to the image of Jesus Christ who is the image of God. This is the order.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The Lord in the passage is Jesus Christ.

All entities that are in favor with God have the trinitarian image. No entity with the corruption of sin have the trinitarian image.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The completion of our salvation is at the end of the age when the church will receive our new bodies and a new location in heaven with our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

All those who are born of the Spirit are sons of God.

I have not read all the posts in this thread and if someone has already explained these wonderful truths I apologize. If not it should be a help.