the sin nature

[Brother James]

From the 1689 Baptist confession:

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

 

[Shiloh]

I'd be careful about leaning anything from Craig.
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Not to worry!

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by Brother James:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shiloh:
Craig

???????????
IF man was not BORN with a sin nature...where did our sin nature come from? If there is no such thing as a sin nature why does man sin? If man was not born with a nature to sin, could it be possible for some person over the years to live without sinning and thus go to Heaven without Christ? Sorry for the simple questions....I need to go slow to learn this new doctrine of yours.

I'd be careful about leaning anything from Craig. He believes in salvation by works, baptismal regeneration as well as the eradication of the old nature. </font>[/QUOTE]In other words, he doesn't believe what God said in scripture.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Shiloh:
Craig

???????????
IF man was not BORN with a sin nature...where did our sin nature come from? If there is no such thing as a sin nature why does man sin? If man was not born with a nature to sin, could it be possible for some person over the years to live without sinning and thus go to Heaven without Christ? Sorry for the simple questions....I need to go slow to learn this new doctrine of yours.

I have answered all of these questions already in this very thread, stating very clearly what the Bible says. Please read all of my posts in this tread before asking me any more questions. If there is a statement that I made that you do not understand, please quote the statement and I will explain it to you.

Now I will ask you a question,

Where in the Bible does it say that all men inherited a sin nature?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Brother James:
I'd be careful about leaning anything from Craig. He believes in salvation by works, baptismal regeneration as well as the eradication of the old nature.

Do you believe in salvation by posting false, libelous, inflammatory ad hominem attacks contrary to the rules of this message board rather than posting data to refute my posts?

 

[Craigbythesea]

donnA wrote,

In other words, he doesn't believe what God said in scripture.

This is not true; I believe what the Bible says. But some people believe what the Bible does NOT say! So far, no one has posted a single Scriptures that says that all men have inherited a sin nature. And for your convenience, I even posted the Scriptures that are often mistakenly interpreted to say that.

 

[shannonL]

Craig,

Your a liberal. Quit denying it. Its time to come clean.

BTW, the Bible clearly opposes your view but that is a moot point when talking to a lib.

I take that you have never had children? If you did I ask you did they just start behaving from the moment they were born. Did you have to teach them to be selfish, to say NO! so on and so forth?
We have to train up a child in the way they should go because if we don't they will go the way they want to go which is to rebel against parents and God.
If we are not born with a wicked heart with a propensity to, without effort do wrong , i.e. sin then when exactly do our new borns become condemned?
I know this will lead no where but please just enlighten me apart from scripture even, how do you explain the innate ability for a baby to rebel etc.... Why do we have to discipline children if they are not born sinners? Are they just going to grow out of it?
You don't even take Gen1-11 as literal do you? Say what you want but there is always a common thread with you libs and it always leads back to how you guys interpret Gen.1-11. Everytime.
You fellows start out wrong and by the time it is all said and done you end up way off in left field. Everytime.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Craig,

Your a liberal. Quit denying it. Its time to come clean.

BTW, the Bible clearly opposes your view but that is a moot point when talking to a lib.

I take that you have never had children? If you did I ask you did they just start behaving from the moment they were born. Did you have to teach them to be selfish, to say NO! so on and so forth?
We have to train up a child in the way they should go because if we don't they will go the way they want to go which is to rebel against parents and God.
If we are not born with a wicked heart with a propensity to, without effort do wrong , i.e. sin then when exactly do our new borns become condemned?
I know this will lead no where but please just enlighten me apart from scripture even, how do you explain the innate ability for a baby to rebel etc.... Why do we have to discipline children if they are not born sinners? Are they just going to grow out of it?
You don't even take Gen1-11 as literal do you? Say what you want but there is always a common thread with you libs and it always leads back to how you guys interpret Gen.1-11. Everytime.
You fellows start out wrong and by the time it is all said and done you end up way off in left field. Everytime.

Whether I am a liberal, a communist, a terrorist, a fundamentalist, conservative evangelical Christian, or a circus clown is irrelevant to truth expressed in my posts. And the fact that I believe the Bible regarding the nature of man rather than the view of some humanists does not make me a liberal. And those that are defending in this thread a humanist theory that is contrary to the word of God are taking an ultra-liberal stand that denies the truth of the word of God.

 

[Shiloh]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
You can spin it, twist it, turn it upside down but this verse proves you wrong seven days a week.

 

[LadyEagle]

Brother Shiloh, Amen, Amen, AMEN!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Shiloh:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
You can spin it, twist it, turn it upside down but this verse proves you wrong seven days a week.

Rom. 5:12 says absolutely nothing about a sin nature or any other kind of nature. It says, and I quote it word for word, apparently your idea of putting a spin on the Holy Scriptures, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

By one man sin (“sin,” not “a sin nature”) entered into the world, and death by sin (“sin,” not “a sin nature”); and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (“have sinned,” not “have inherited a sin nature”). If your doctrine requires that you edit the Bible and change the wording, maybe your doctrine is not in the Bible at all. And let’s not throw away the rest of the sentence, but include it and the following sentence to complete Paul’s thought,

12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
13. for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. (KJV, 1769)

Paul’s point here is that we all sinned in Adam, and the proof that we did is the fact that “until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.” (KJV, 1769)

Let’s not edit the word of to make it say something that it does not say.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Brother Shiloh, Amen, Amen, AMEN!

It might be a good idea to read a post and think about it before posting, "Amen, Amen, AMEN!"

 

[Watchman]

For my two cents here, I always felt that the flesh and the old nature were one and the same. It is true "Old Nature" is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, neither is "Trinity", but we hold it as blasphemous unless you believe that there is one God, manifested in three Persons.
The Bible does speak of the new man and the old man. It speaks of the natural man.
In regards to the new man, that speaks of the new nature, do we not have that either?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Watchman:
For my two cents here, I always felt that the flesh and the old nature were one and the same. It is true "Old Nature" is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, neither is "Trinity", but we hold it as blasphemous unless you believe that there is one God, manifested in three Persons.
The Bible does speak of the new man and the old man. It speaks of the natural man.
In regards to the new man, that speaks of the new nature, do we not have that either?

I have already posted in this thread a detailed explanation why it is scripturally impossible for the flesh and the old nature to be one and the same. We do not find the word Trinity anywhere in the Bible, but the doctrine is found throughout the Bible. We do not find the words “old nature” anywhere in the Bible, and unlike the doctrine of the Trinity, we do not find anything in the Bible that says that all men have inherited anything like an old nature. All men, however, inherit the part of the man that the Scriptures call the σαρκ, commonly translated “flesh” in most English translations. And Jesus, being human as well as divine, inherited that same part of man, and the Bible expressly says that this is the case in Rom. 1:3,

3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Therefore, if the flesh is the old nature, Jesus also had the old nature—and of course that is blasphemy! The flesh is the part of man that makes all of us susceptible to temptation, and because Jesus shared with us this part of all men, he was tempted.

Heb. 4:14. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (NASB, 1995)

The teaching that all men are born with a sinful nature is not a Biblical teaching, but a teaching from secular humanism. Yes, I know that a lot of preachers preach this, but a lot of preachers preach a lot of strange stuff, and this is just another example.

Let’s ground ourselves in the Bible, including the teachings in the Bible about the flesh that explain why people sin, and we will all see that there is no need for the false teaching from secular humanism that all men inherited a sin nature.

 

[Watchman]

Well Craig, we simply disagree. I think both of us do reject Calvinism; however, I do believe the Calvinist's have it right about Total depravity; (but NOT to the unscriptual stretch of total inabiity). Even a casual look at children tells us what we are from our earliest youth-we are sinners. It is evident that we have to learn to do good, we do not have to learn to sin, we got that down from our earliest youth-and Scripture DOES speak of this.
Yes, we do need to ground ourselves in the Bible, scriptures that clearly tells us what we are-sinners from our youth.

 

[Brother James]

"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." John 17:19

Christ is made to his people sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30). What am I? What are you? Are we not filthy, polluted, and defiled? Do not some of us, more or less, daily feel altogether as an unclean thing? Is not every thought of our heart altogether vile? Does any holiness, any spirituality, any heavenly-mindedness, any purity, any resemblance to the divine image dwell in our hearts by nature? Not a grain! Not an atom! How then can I, a polluted sinner, ever see the face of a holy God? How can I, a worm of earth, corrupted within and without by indwelling and committed sin, ever hope to see a holy God without shrinking into destruction?

I cannot see him, except so far as the Lord of life and glory is made sanctification to me. Why should men start so at "imputed sanctification?" Why should not Christ's holiness be imputed to his people as well as Christ's righteousness? Why should they not stand sanctified in him, as well as justified? Why not? Is there anything in Jesus, as God-man Mediator, which he has not for his people? Has he any perfection, any attribute, any gift, any blessing, which is not for their use? Did he not sanctify himself that they might be sanctified by the truth? Is he not the holy Lamb of God, that they might be "holy, and without blame before him in love?" What is my holiness, even such as God may be pleased to impart to me? Is it not, to say the least, scanty? Is it not, to say the least, but little in measure? But when we view the pure and spotless holiness of Jesus imputed to his people, and view them holy in him, pure in him, without spot in him, how it does away with all the wrinkles of the creature, and makes them stand holy and spotless before God.

J.C. PHILPOT

 

[Brother James]

What a mystery are you!

"So I find this law at work—When I want to do
good, evil is right there with me." Rom. 7:21

Are you not often a mystery to yourself?

Warm one moment—cold the next!

Abasing yourself one hour—
exalting yourself the following!

Loving the world, full of it, steeped up to
your head in it today—crying, groaning, and
sighing for a sweet manifestation of the love
of God tomorrow!

Brought down to nothingness, covered with
shame and confusion, on your knees before
you leave your room—filled with pride and self
importance before you have got down stairs!

Despising the world, and willing to give it all
up for one taste of the love of Jesus when in
solitude—trying to grasp it with both hands
when in business!

What a mystery are you!

Touched by love—and stung with hatred!

Possessing a little wisdom—and a great deal of folly!

Earthly minded—and yet having the affections in heaven!

Pressing forward—and lagging behind!

Full of sloth—and yet taking the kingdom with violence!

And thus the Spirit, by a process which we may feel
but cannot adequately describe—leads us into the
mystery of the two natures perpetually struggling
and striving against each other in the same bosom.
So that one man cannot more differ from another,
than the same man differs from himself.

But the mystery of the kingdom of heaven is this—
that our carnal mind undergoes no alteration, but
maintains a perpetual war with grace. And thus,
the deeper we sink in self abasement under a
sense of our vileness, the higher we rise in a
knowledge of Christ, and the blacker we are in
our own view—the more lovely does Jesus appear.

J.C. PHILPOT 1802-1869

 

[Brother James]

C. H. Spurgeon

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"He shall save His people from their sins."—Matthew 1:21.
ANY persons, if they are asked what they understand by salvation, will reply, "Being saved from hell and taken to heaven." This is one result of salvation, but it is not one tithe of what is contained in that boon. It is true our Lord Jesus Christ does redeem all His people from the wrath to come; He saves them from the fearful condemnation which their sins had brought upon them; but His triumph is far more complete than this. He saves His people "from their sins." Oh! sweet deliverance from our worst foes. Where Christ works a saving work, He casts Satan from his throne, and will not let him be master any longer. No man is a true Christian if sin reigns in his mortal body. Sin will be in us—it will never be utterly expelled till the spirit enters glory; but it will never have dominion. There will be a striving for dominion—a lusting against the new law and the new spirit which God has implanted—but sin will never get the upper hand so as to be absolute monarch of our nature. Christ will be Master of the heart, and sin must be mortified. The Lion of the tribe of Judah shall prevail, and the dragon shall be cast out. Professor! is sin subdued in you? If your life is unholy your heart is unchanged, and if your heart is unchanged you are an unsaved person. If the Saviour has not sanctified you, renewed you, given you a hatred of sin and a love of holiness, He has done nothing in you of a saving character. The grace which does not make a man better than others is a worthless counterfeit. Christ saves His people, not in their sins, but from them. "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." If not saved from sin, how shall we hope to be counted among His people. Lord, save me now from all evil, and enable me to honour my Saviour.

 

[Helen]

If it is in the nature of the beast to sin, then the beast has a sin nature. That is us. The simple proof is that there is no one but Christ who has not sinned. It is in our nature to rebel and disobey. If it were not, the Ten Commandments would have been unnecessary. Commandments are only given when one's tendency is to do the opposite. No one ever had to command me to sleep, or eat, or giggle when I find something funny. These are part of my nature.

So was the tendency to prefer evil, to sin, before I was given a new nature by Christ -- one that prefers Him and does not want to sin (even though I do).

No one ever had to teach a two-year old to have a tantrum. No one ever had to teach a three-year old to grab away toys... "MINE!" No one ever had to teach a four or five year old to try lying to see if it would work. It is in their nature to behave this way.

It is in the nature of all men to prefer themselves above others, and often despite others. That is why we have laws. Because men need some form of control to make a society workable.

It's called sin nature.

The Bible doesn't have to say the sky is blue, either. Some things are simply too obvious to need talking about much. If Christ is not the cure for sin nature, what is He the cure for?

 

[Tom Butler]

If you want to see the sin nature played out in small children, go watch the children in your church's nursery for a while. "Mine!!" "I want it!!" Tantrums, etc. They are doing what comes naturally.

Tom B.