It simply says "assembly in the wilderness." I don't know how you get NT church out of that. They were an assembly of Jews. Whenever the Jews assembled or gathered, they were an assembly, an ekklesia, the same NT word for church. That doesn't make it a church.
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The smoking gun, of the Church’s birthday
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Tom Butler
New Member
Let me make an observation here about the "empowering" of the church at Pentecost. More accurately, it is the re-empowering.
Throughout Jesus earthly ministry, his disciples were empowered by the Christ himself. Remember when he sent out the seventy (Luke 10)? When they returned, they reported to Jesus "even the demons were subject to us."
Remember when the disciples handed out five loaves and two fishes to 5,000 people. They operated in the power of the Lord Jesus.
I find it interesting that they operated that way all the way up to the Crucifixion. Then, after the resurrection, Jesus ascended and left them. It appears that he left them without his power. He told them, however that they would receive power from the Holy Spirit, and it would come in a few days. This power would drive their witnessing.
So, for the next few days, the disciples, mother Mary, and the other women, his brothers and other followers gathered in that upper room for prayer and supplication. I have read more than one writer who thinks they were hiding there.
We know the rest of the story. The Holy Spirit did something that He had never done before. He empowered every believer. Those early disciples, whom Jesus had empowered, were left powerless when He ascended, but re-empowered.
Throughout Jesus earthly ministry, his disciples were empowered by the Christ himself. Remember when he sent out the seventy (Luke 10)? When they returned, they reported to Jesus "even the demons were subject to us."
Remember when the disciples handed out five loaves and two fishes to 5,000 people. They operated in the power of the Lord Jesus.
I find it interesting that they operated that way all the way up to the Crucifixion. Then, after the resurrection, Jesus ascended and left them. It appears that he left them without his power. He told them, however that they would receive power from the Holy Spirit, and it would come in a few days. This power would drive their witnessing.
So, for the next few days, the disciples, mother Mary, and the other women, his brothers and other followers gathered in that upper room for prayer and supplication. I have read more than one writer who thinks they were hiding there.
We know the rest of the story. The Holy Spirit did something that He had never done before. He empowered every believer. Those early disciples, whom Jesus had empowered, were left powerless when He ascended, but re-empowered.
Then there was no New Covenant church before AD 70?
No.
God has always had a people since Adam.
He has had an Old Covenant People which is the "church in the wilderness" and he has to this day a New Covenant People which is the New Testament Church.
But all the way back to Abraham when God made that first Covenant of Faith God has had a called out assembly of believers.
In fact, Hebrews 11 reminds us that it extended all the way back to Able.
That called out assembly can rightly be called, "The Church."
God has always had a Church since Adam.
Now if you want to say that that church transformed at Pentecost into the New Covenant Church- I don't have a problem with that.
But forcing a discontinuity between the Covenants is a dangerous thing. The covenant God made with Adam is the same covenant he made with Abraham but Abrahams newer covenant came with a fuller revelation. The same covenant God made with Moses is the same covenant God made with Abraham- but the revelation that accompanied it was fuller. The same covenant God made with the New Testament saints is the same one God has always made but the New Testament Covenant contains the fullest revelation.
Abraham was saved the same way I have been saved. That the revelation by which I believed is more complete does not discount that it is ultimately the same covenant of faith. Thank God the covenant is clearer in it's New form- but it is still this- God saves those who trust in Him.
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As you said- it is the same word. I don't know how you miss that.
The church is defined rightly as a called out assembly of the people of God.
That is what the believers were in the Old Testament and that is what they are in the New Testament.
The author of Hebrews could not have been any clearer.
I have used a similar illustrative story (parable) that involves the automobile - at what point from drawing board/design, to the manufacturing of the separate components, to the assembly on the assembly line, to the installation of the engine and transmission, to the adding of the battery and actually cranking the engine- at what point do those individual parts and components become a "car"? Is it when the iron, plastics, and other materials are mined or manufactured? Is it when they become the identifiable components? Or is it when all the parts necessary to be able to identify the "car" that it really IS a car? Or does it take a battery and actually turning the key to start it and drive it that it becomes a "real car" (or maybe in our terms here - a "true" car???)?
My view - when all the components necessary to identify it as a car are in place - it "IS" a car. But it must be empowered (install the battery and fuel) before it can carry out the function OF a car.
Christ established His church on this earth (we won't approach what constitutes "the church" in this thread) by designing, and assembling the parts - crafting and moulding each part to carry out its individual part of the whole. Then, on the day of Pentecost, the empowering came for the church to do its function and mission.
I cannot believe I am so quickly responding to another post in this thread -
Ekklesia was a very common secular word in history (OT and NT) - assembly. It was also used to describe pretty much any "religious" gathering (pagan or otherwise). To paint the assembly in the OT with the same color (AKA - our term "church") as the New Testament use of the term is a very big stretch and inaccurate.
It is the same word here:
But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. (Acts 19:39)
And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly. (Acts 19:41)
--They gathered together (assembled) [ekklesia] in the theater. It was an unlawful assembly. The mayor dismissed the ekklesia.
Was this also a church?
Tom Butler
New Member
I'll say this again. The twelve disciples were the material of the church Jesus established during his earthly ministry. He ordained them. When he sent out the Seventy, he commissioned them, gave them marching orders.
They lacked nothing, even power, before Pentecost. They had the message, and Jesus provided the power. The disciples baptized converts, and celebrated the Lord's Supper--before Pentecost.
Jesus gave them instructions about church discipline.
I do find it curious that many who are perfectly willing to make Jesus the Head of the church, are not willing for him to be the Founder. Can it really be that the Head of the church was nowhere around when it started?
They lacked nothing, even power, before Pentecost. They had the message, and Jesus provided the power. The disciples baptized converts, and celebrated the Lord's Supper--before Pentecost.
Jesus gave them instructions about church discipline.
I do find it curious that many who are perfectly willing to make Jesus the Head of the church, are not willing for him to be the Founder. Can it really be that the Head of the church was nowhere around when it started?
You miss one little detail..
The message they preached was not the death, burial, and resurrection.
The power they had, all of them had it.. including the son of perdition (the unsaved one). Additionally they didn't baptize anyone till AFTER Pentacost.. their marching orders took effect AFTER the Pentacost instance.
Remember also that though the partook of what was to 'be' the Lords Supper, they had no knowledge or understanding of it's nature or purpose. It was done for them so they would 'remember' and do it in 'Remembrance' of Him.
Now that is a silly statement Tom since no one denies He is the Founder and He was around when it was started/began..He said I will never leave you nor forsake you.. yet He is with them through holy Spirit who had not been sent forth YET (per Christ's own words).. but was to come upon them at Penacost.
No, brother, the Old Covenant church was not under the New Covenant. That doesn't mean that people were not born again in the New Covenant sense of being circumcized in the heart, because yes, God has always had a people called out for His names' sake. It means that the VISIBLE people of God (Jews) were under the Old Covenant (Moses) until the New Covenant (Jesus) replaced it.
I am not forcing discontinuity but recognizing the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. You seem to be speaking as if the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the same thing, which is not the case. And the Abrahamic Covenant is not the Old Covenant, but it is the precursor to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant does not mean the oldest covenant, but it is "old" in relation to the "new", especially as it relates to the Jews.
Traditional Covenant Theology teaches that Adam was under the Covenant of Works but was saved under the Covenant of Grace. All subsequent covenants were different administrations but were all expression of the over-arching Covenant of Grace. This includes Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic (Old), and the Christologic (New) Covenants.
So when it comes to salvation of souls (the invisible people of God), all those saved are without exception saved under the Covenant of Grace.
Your homework is to untangle all of that. Good luck.
But really, it's much simpler than it appears at first.
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