The Social Gospel?

[Silverhair]

You are wrong. Your error is due to lifting one verse while ignoring the rest of the passage.

The verse can be taken to mean a secular resistance movement but the passage explains this to be resisting those influences.

We put on the armor of God. We stand in Christ.

Too many Christiams have trashed God's armor as useless and put on the armor of the world forces of this darkness. They engage the enemy by joining the enemy and forsaking God.

While I agree that too many Christians trust in their own power rather than trust in God I do believe that you have missed Gods' intent for those that follow Him. Yes God can and has intervened directly in our human affairs but in most cases it would seem that He wants us as Christians to make our voices heard.

John Stuart Mill in an 1867 inaugural address at the University of St. Andrews and stated:
“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”

So while I agree that you have the right to stand to the side and not vote I think that by doing so you are in effect denying the responsibility that God has given us.

 

[JonC]

While I agree that too many Christians trust in their own power rather than trust in God I do believe that you have missed Gods' intent . . . .

I am not sure you know what I believe here (I'm not sure that I have explained my own view).

But here is the common source of disagreement. Christians can read and agree on Scripture insofar as "what is written". The disagreement is most often in what people believe God intended.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not sure you know what I believe here (I'm not sure that I have explained my own view).

But here is the common source of disagreement. Christians can read and agree on Scripture insofar as "what is written". The disagreement is most often in what people believe God intended.

What I was commenting on was your stated position that you do not vote. Why you do not is not the question it is whether you should be engaged. Are we as Christians to stand back and do nothing? Does God not use His people to accomplish His plan?

 

[JonC]

What I was commenting on was your stated position that you do not vote. Why you do not is not the question it is whether you should be engaged. Are we as Christians to stand back and do nothing? Does God not use His people to accomplish His plan?

Yes, I no longer vote. This is true.

But this is not standing back and doing nothing (unless we believe God is inept). As a Christian I believe we should stand in Christ, with the full armor of God. We should reach out to those suffering, to the poor and sick, to those in prison, to those wrestling with sin.


The difference is not standing back (I never said stand back). The difference is our stand.

Often we hear Chriatians joining the "powers of darkness" because they believe it is acceptable to be a part of a "lesser evil" in order to combat a "greater evil".

But Scripture doesn't say "lesser" or "greater" powers of darkness. Scripture tells us to stand, to resist these powers. Not choose which to support. In the end they are the same.

IMHO only a Christians of very little faith participate in politics. But I also recognize a failure of churches here as well.

 

[kyredneck]

IMHO only a Christians of very little faith participate in politics.

What an insult that is. To many faithful Christians.

 

[kyredneck]

I'd say the Christian life itself is a stand against the Democrats.

Fill in the blank:
Christian life itself is a stand against ______________ .

At any given moment the Christian example could be the answer to an evil.

6 Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old?
7 will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic 6

 

[JonC]

What an insult that is. To many faithful Christians.

An insult....maybe....but not to faithful Christians.

I don't mean "saved" Christians (salvation isn't necessarily the issue here).

I mean Christians who are obedient to God's Word and willing to put on the "armor of God" and stand rather than support a worldly power of darkness in order to defeat a greater evil.

 

[JonC]

Fill in the blank:
Christian life itself is a stand against ______________ .

At any given moment the Christian example could be the answer to an evil.

6 Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old?
7 will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic 6

Sentence is wrong. The Chriatian life is a stand for Christ and an unashamed proclamation of God's Word come what may. It is walking with God rather than walking fir the World.

Do you believe that Christians exist to solve the World's social problems?

I ask because this may be a difference in how we see things. I believe that the World (these principalities and powers of darkness) are at odds with God.

The passage you present proves my point. It was to a people of God, not to the World.

 

[kyredneck]

IMHO only a Christians of very little faith participate in politics.

An insult....maybe....but not to faithful Christians.

So, Christians who vote have very little faith? Is that your premise?

 

[JonC]

So, Christians who vote have very little faith? Is that your premise?

Not necessarily very little as a blanket statement but very little in terms of divine sovereignty. Not enough to obey Scripture and let God take care of the World.


It does go back to faith. God instructs us on what to do. But we think that is not enough, thar we must involve ourselves in these powers God warns us to resist.

The only reason I can think of is a lack of faith. We see the World which is hostile to God, but instead of standing in Christ knowing the World will be hostile to God we instead decide to become a part of these powers to make the World friendly to God.

 

[kyredneck]

Sentence is wrong.

No, your comprehension of the post is wrong.

Do you believe that Christians exist to solve the World's social problems?

No.

How are we the salt of the earth? What does that mean?

I believe that the World (these principalities and powers of darkness) are at odds with God.

I believe it's perfectly fine with God if His children choose to vote.

The passage you present proves my point. It was to a people of God, not to the World.

This statement proves my point that your comprehension of the post is wrong.

 

[kyredneck]

So, Christians who vote have very little faith? Is that your premise?

Not necessarily very little as a blanket statement but very little in terms of divine sovereignty. Not enough to obey Scripture and let God take care of the World.

So which scripture is the voting Christian violating?

 

[JonC]

No, your comprehension of the post is wrong.

Could be. That is always a risk with written discussion.

The sentence was : The Christian life itself is a stand against ________.

Many things could, Biblically, fill the blank.

It is a stand against allowing the World into our congregations.

It is a stand against allowing the World into our lives.

It is a stand against putting our hands to the plow and looking back.

It is a stand against compromise.

BUT mostly, it is a stand for Christ.

No.

How are we the salt of the earth? What does that mean?

I agree that we are not charged with solving the World's social problem.

The meaning of us being "the salt of the earth" is that we are set aside as a holy people, a people that embodies Christ.

This means we do not compromise, do not become a part of the world's system (do not loose our flavor).

I believe it's perfectly fine with God if His children choose to vote.

I actually agree with the early church here. We do vote. We do hold office. We do these things within the church, but not the World. When we become the World to reach the World we are salt that have lost its flavor.

This statement proves my point that your comprehension of the post is wrong.

It may. Like I said, it is easy to miscommunicate on these forums.

My point was that the passage you offered was how God's people are to act within the group composed of God's people - not the World outside of that context.

What was your point of the passage?

 

[JonC]

So which scripture is the voting Christian violating?

Several. Colossians 1 speaks of these worldly powers as what God has delivered us from. In Ephesians 6 Paul tells us to resist the schemes of Satan. Our struggle is against the powers, against the rulers, against the world forces of this darkness. These are spiritual forces we are to resist. But this resistance is standing form in His Word (not compromising with these forces, not joining these forces)

Jesus tells us that the World is at odds with God, and no one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, I no longer vote. This is true.

But this is not standing back and doing nothing (unless we believe God is inept). As a Christian I believe we should stand in Christ, with the full armor of God. We should reach out to those suffering, to the poor and sick, to those in prison, to those wrestling with sin.


The difference is not standing back (I never said stand back). The difference is our stand.

Often we hear Chriatians joining the "powers of darkness" because they believe it is acceptable to be a part of a "lesser evil" in order to combat a "greater evil".

But Scripture doesn't say "lesser" or "greater" powers of darkness. Scripture tells us to stand, to resist these powers. Not choose which to support. In the end they are the same.

IMHO only a Christians of very little faith participate in politics. But I also recognize a failure of churches here as well.

What it comes down to is how we see God working in the world. To cast a vote against a greater evil does not mean you are supporting a lesser evil. In this case against the evil of Harris et all.

All through scripture we see how God used men to accomplish His plan.

 

[JonC]

What it comes down to is how we see God working in the world. To cast a vote against a greater evil does not mean you are supporting a lesser evil. In this case against the evil of Harris et all.

All through scripture we see how God used men to accomplish His plan.

You are incorrect on one major point.

To vote is to support. Voting for a lesser evil is supporting that lesser evil. The intention is to prevent a greater evil.


God does use men to accomplish His plans....even evil men. But God never blesses men who supports evil, whether the greater or lesser evil.

God used early church persecutions to strengthen and spread Christianity. That doesn't mean God desired Christians to support those persecutions.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair and @kyredneck ,

I do need to point out that I am telling you why I do not vote.

Christians need to pray and follow their own conscious. I'm not telling other people to vote, or not to vote. Or, if they vote who to support.

I just want Christians to accept accountability for their support or abstaining from supporting any candidate because we are responsible for our actions.

 

[Silverhair]

You are incorrect on one major point.

To vote is to support. Voting for a lesser evil is supporting that lesser evil. The intention is to prevent a greater evil.


God does use men to accomplish His plans....even evil men. But God never blesses men who supports evil, whether the greater or lesser evil.

God used early church persecutions to strengthen and spread Christianity. That doesn't mean God desired Christians to support those persecutions.

Jon, it seems that you are confused on this issue. By your not casting a vote against the evil you are supporting that evil. Is Trump sinful man, yes, just as you and I are.

Do you think God would bless someone that sees and evil that he could do something about and yet stands back and says it is not not problem. That is the problem that I see with many Christians, they will weep and wring their hands about all the evil in the world but will not step up to do anything about it.

If the apostles had taken the same do not get involved view that you seem to have then there would not have been any persecutions to strengthen and spread Christianity as there would not have been any Christians to persecute.

 

[JonC]

Jon, it seems that you are confused on this issue. By your not casting a vote against the evil you are supporting that evil.

No, you are confused here and unfortunately have resorted to sin. Each Christian needs to pray and follow their conscious. That is why I refuse to tell other Christians to abstain from voting (here I am explaining why I abstain). I desire to avoid the sin you have committed.

The reason you make an error is the philosophy you choose (utility, or utility of outcome). This is a practical but unbiblical philosophy.

Those who follow their conscious by not supporting a "lesser evil" are not supporting the "greater evil". If you read the life of Jesus in the gospel accounts you would, undoubtedly, accused Jesus of supporting evil.

We are accountable for our support, not for things we don't support. As a Christian I believe I am called to resist these powers of darkness and to stand on His Word.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair and @kyredneck ,

I do need to point out that I am telling you why I do not vote.

Christians need to pray and follow their own conscious. I'm not telling other people to vote, or not to vote. Or, if they vote who to support.

I just want Christians to accept accountability for their support or abstaining from supporting any candidate because we are responsible for our actions.

But what you seem to overlook is that we will also be held accountable for our inaction.

I understand that you have your reasons for not casting a vote, I have been tempted to do the same more than once.