The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

What you see as engaging the world I see as you avoiding the world.

But we will just have to agree to disagree Jon.

You view Jesus as avoiding the World as well.

He refused to engage the government, the social problems, abortion, economic issues, and immigration (which became a major downfall for Rome).

But you are wrong. Jesus engaged the World by proclaiming His Kingdom, by showing us how to live, and by giving His life that many might be saved.


If I support a platform then I support keeping abortion a legitimate choice.

How can I be salt and light if I look exactly like the World to those of the World?

Abortion is evil. All of our major parties (GOP, DNC, Libertarian....etc.) vow to keep abortion a choice.

You view leftist immigration policy and economic plans as a greater evil than abortion. I do not.

I view the GOP as the greater evil, and the DNC as the greater danger to our nation.

If I support the DNC to resist a greater evil then I support a demonic platform.

I will not do that. Never.

Instead I will stand for Christ and in Him, bring obedient and trusting that God is in control.

This means engaging with the World daily, but remaining not of the World.

Your choice to be one of the World to change the World is an easy way out. It is not resisting evil but participating in evil to maintain economic policies you believe will make your life easier.

 

[JonC]

You continue to miss what the bible shows us. If Christ and the apostles did as you are doing then where would Christianity be. I see that you miss the reality that people are the world. They both engaged with sinful people which you seem to have a problem understanding.

You will do as you have chosen to do but you error when you try to justify your view through scripture.

Jesus and the Disciples did exactly what I am doing. So did Christians until the advent of the Catholic Church.

We DO engage sinful people. But you are not talking about that.

You are talking about becoming sinful (supporting abortion, for example) to influence the World.

I am talking about engaging the World by engaging with sinful people. You are talking about being of the World to change policies that will support your immigration and economic desires.


Look at this thread.

What have you adcocated? Supporting abortion and immoral lifestyles. Why? To make sure economic and immigration policies remain conservative.

What have I advocated? Opposing sin, reaching individuals with the gospel.


You are "of the World". I refuse. You support the "greater evil", thinking it less evil than liberal economics. You have allowed the concerns of the World to choke out the gospel in how you engage the World. You have compromised your faith.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

A lot of the issue is the reasons you support, and I supported in the past, a worldly political power.

My main point was to stand against sin, specifically abortion. The reason this was my issue is I know we can't legislate morality but I had hoped we could protect those children.

I get that your iddue is economics. But I do not assign a moral value to worldly economic plans.

Let's look at two members who support different political powers:

@KenH has stated that he is supporting Harris, mainly for her military platform (strengthen allied nations).

@Van supports Trump. Trump seeks to decrease the federal government, Hartis supports "big government".

But both support a platform that vows to make or keep abortion as birth control a choice for the people. The difference is the DNC want it to be an individual choice and the GOP wants it to be a state choice by the will of the majority of their citizens.


The difference between the parties are worldly differences (economic plans, immigration policy, foreign policy, etc.).


Of us four ((you, Van, Ken, and yours truely) I am the only person willing to take an uncompromised stand against abortion as birth control.

Yet Van, Ken and I all believe abortion is a sin.


I can be salt and light where you three cannot. I can stand against evil while you three can merely speak against evil while also advocating for evil.

The difference here is I stand in Christ opposed to evil, which includes the evil you support. And this means I am more active in engaging the World than you are by voicing your support for the World.


I will note that you claim Scripture teaches that Jesus and the Disciples engaged the World as you engage the World but not as I do. BUT you have failed to provide even one passage supporting your claim.

I say we engage the World by engaging individuals. You say we engage the World by participating in secular politics.

There are plenty of passages showing Jesus and His Disciples engaging the World as I advocate, but none as you think necessary.


What passage were you thinking of where Jesus and the Disciples sought to change government policies?

 

[DaveXR650]

This reminds me of when I came across some writings of Presbyterian ministers from the 1850's going back and forth on the Fugitive Slave Act. This law, if you aren't familiar with it, required people in free states to turn in runaway slaves to the authorities or face heavy fines and even jail time if aid was given.

Some of the pastors, like Icabod Spencer, wrote that it was a Christian's duty to obey the magistrate and turn in the runaways even though he personally was against slavery. Others wrote that a Christian should ignore the law, give aid and even hide slaves but not oppose authorities if they found out. If necessary, they should suffer the consequences of resisting passively. But others said to take up arms and oppose the evil directly. All these were Christian ministers, all supported their position with scripture. In the articles I read they were all of the same denomination.

 

[Van]

I never said that the Dems support school choice.

I am saying that you are a Democrat when applied to different topics.
You want the government to take taxpayers money and give to people with school age children so they can go to private school.
School choice will not remove federal dollars given to public schools. You are a socialist in this issue.
And you are willing to support allowing citizens to devide whether to murder children as a compromise to get your socialistic agenda.
I see two evils - the GOP and the DNC. As far as the World goes the DNC is the greater evil.

But as far as the Church goes, the GOP is the greater evil. You are more dangerous to Chriatianity than Harris (Harris is more dangerous to our nation).

First we have denial of the obvious.
False claim: Your idea about wealth distribution, about the government taking my tax dollars and giving it to those who can't afford private schools....or simply won't make the sacrifice or get a better job....is socialistic. [And of course I never said JonC said that the Democrats support school choice.]

Truth: Government funded schools use tax dollars to pay for education, thus not a shred of difference when providing school choice.

Second, you attempt to change the subject to me by making up a false claim I support some unstated Democrat policy.

Third, you ask if I would support the murder of children, in order to get school choice. Typical change the subject to me question avoiding the subject at issue, school choice.

Fourth, you make the false claim the GOP is a greater evil to the church, and then make up anther false claim that I am more dangerous to the Christianity that the Democrat candidate Harris. Obvious obfuscation.

 

[Van]

Of us four ((you, Van, Ken, and yours truely) I am the only person willing to take an uncompromised stand against abortion as birth control.

Yet Van, Ken and I all believe abortion is a sin.

Once again my view is misrepresented. Why aren't my views presented by quoting full sentences of my posts?

Is justifiable homicide murder? Nope. Is an abortion to save the life of the mother murder? Nope

Is justifiable homicide sin? Nope. Is an abortion to save the life of the mother a sin. Nope.

But who or what is given in scripture the authority to use lethal force to protect life? An individual acting for themselves? Nope
Someone or group acting under the color of government in accordance with godly principles? Yes.

 

[KenH]

@KenH has stated that he is supporting Harris, mainly for her military platform (strengthen allied nations).

Incorrect. I support Kamala Harris to defeat Donald Trump and the National Conservatives.

 

[JonC]

First we have denial of the obvious.
False claim: Your idea about wealth distribution, about the government taking my tax dollars and giving it to those who can't afford private schools....or simply won't make the sacrifice or get a better job....is socialistic. [And of course I never said JonC said that the Democrats support school choice.]

Truth: Government funded schools use tax dollars to pay for education, thus not a shred of difference when providing school choice.

Second, you attempt to change the subject to me by making up a false claim I support some unstated Democrat policy.

Third, you ask if I would support the murder of children, in order to get school choice. Typical change the subject to me question avoiding the subject at issue, school choice.

Fourth, you make the false claim the GOP is a greater evil to the church, and then make up anther false claim that I am more dangerous to the Christianity that the Democrat candidate Harris. Obvious obfuscation.

I disagree.

1. The government taking money from its citizens and distributing that money to parents who want to send their children to private school is socialistic.

There are only two possibilities - take the money in the form of increased taxation or take the money from public schools hurting those who still will have to depend on those schools.

That is the difference. Public schools are public and are already underfunded.

Apply that to roads. You'd take the money used to upkeep public roads and make that money avaliable to people needing to replace private roads.

You are socialistic on this issue.

2. I never claimed you support a Democrat policy. You are a Democrat in principle when it suits your desires.

3. My post was about your compromise.

You stated that you are willing to support making abortion as birth control a decision for American citizens (Trump's platform). Why? Because you want the government to pay for private schools.

 

[JonC]

Incorrect. I support Kamala Harris to defeat Donald Trump and the National Conservatives.

OK. I got the reason wrong.

But the reason why you support Harris does not change the fact that you are supporting the government requiring states and hospitals to provide abortion as birth control.

My position is to stand in Christ which is a stand against evil (this includes your support of pro-abortion laws). You and @Van are a part of the evil I decline to support.

 

[Silverhair]

Please stop making false accusations.

I have NOT claimed that I am not doing anything.

If I look like the World, assume worldly methods, then I am no longer "salt and light" (I would be like you).

The alternative is to be active in the World but do so in ways that are not of the World.

I know you have not "CLAIMED" you were doing nothing. That is not what I said is it?

You have chosen to stand back and not vote. What else are you not doing because you think it would make you part of the world?

Being salt and light takes being involved which is what you have chosen not to be. You may not like that reality but that is what it is.

 

[Silverhair]

You view Jesus as avoiding the World as well.

He refused to engage the government, the social problems, abortion, economic issues, and immigration (which became a major downfall for Rome).

But you are wrong. Jesus engaged the World by proclaiming His Kingdom, by showing us how to live, and by giving His life that many might be saved.


If I support a platform then I support keeping abortion a legitimate choice.

How can I be salt and light if I look exactly like the World to those of the World?

Abortion is evil. All of our major parties (GOP, DNC, Libertarian....etc.) vow to keep abortion a choice.

You view leftist immigration policy and economic plans as a greater evil than abortion. I do not.

I view the GOP as the greater evil, and the DNC as the greater danger to our nation.

If I support the DNC to resist a greater evil then I support a demonic platform.

I will not do that. Never.

Instead I will stand for Christ and in Him, bring obedient and trusting that God is in control.

This means engaging with the World daily, but remaining not of the World.

Your choice to be one of the World to change the World is an easy way out. It is not resisting evil but participating in evil to maintain economic policies you believe will make your life easier.

Bottom line is that you want to be safe. You do not want to put yourself out there on the front lines as it might attract attention to you.

 

[Silverhair]

Jesus and the Disciples did exactly what I am doing. So did Christians until the advent of the Catholic Church.

We DO engage sinful people. But you are not talking about that.

You are talking about becoming sinful (supporting abortion, for example) to influence the World.

I am talking about engaging the World by engaging with sinful people. You are talking about being of the World to change policies that will support your immigration and economic desires.


Look at this thread.

What have you adcocated? Supporting abortion and immoral lifestyles. Why? To make sure economic and immigration policies remain conservative.

What have I advocated? Opposing sin, reaching individuals with the gospel.


You are "of the World". I refuse. You support the "greater evil", thinking it less evil than liberal economics. You have allowed the concerns of the World to choke out the gospel in how you engage the World. You have compromised your faith.

You continue to make wild accusations about what I think but will not look in the mirror to see the one that has chosen to compromise by doing nothing to fight evil.

As I said before we will not agree so to continue this discussion will accomplish nothing.

 

[JonC]

I know you have not "CLAIMED" you were doing nothing. That is not what I said is it?

You have chosen to stand back and not vote. What else are you not doing because you think it would make you part of the world?

Being salt and light takes being involved which is what you have chosen not to be. You may not like that reality but that is what it is.

Yes. You did. And you falsely said I have avoided being salt and light.

You continue to claim you are not doing anything but you you have chosen to avoid being salt and light in this world.

The issue is not action vs inaction but how we choose to act.

Jesus and the Disciples chose to reach people, to witness to people in the World.

The Jews wanted a messiah who would would actively fight against the World to bring about a godly government. Jesus disappointed them. His Kingdom is not of this world.

I believe out action should imitate that of Jesus and the Disciples.

You believe we should fight against the evils of the World (what the Jews were looking for in a messiah...their hearts were in the wrong place).


What am I not doing in order to be in but not of the world? Mainly observing but not participating in politics. I am trying not to allow myself to be carried away by worldly things.

But in terms of the forces of darkness, I believe politics has become the main sin crouching outside of a Christians door. It has replaced the gospel of Jesus Christ with a social gospel.


Even if I did engage in politics, I could not support any presidential candidate because I will not support a platform that seeks to make or keep abortion as birth control a choice. I believe abortion is murder.

 

[JonC]

You continue to make wild accusations about what I think but will not look in the mirror to see the one that has chosen to compromise by doing nothing to fight evil.

As I said before we will not agree so to continue this discussion will accomplish nothing.

Again you make a false claim.

You believe that Jesus and the Disciples did nothing to fight evil. This is not correct. They fought evil by reaching individuals. This is what I believe is appropriate.

But since you consider Jesus and the Diciples to have stood aside, doing nothing, I suppose that is my answer. If that was good enough for them, I guess it's good enough for me.

You believe Jesus and His Disciples, by "doing nothing" about the government or secular leadership, we're supporting evil. I think the problem here is with you.

 

[JonC]

You continue to make wild accusations about what I think but will not look in the mirror to see the one that has chosen to compromise by doing nothing to fight evil..

Again, I choose to fight evil as Jesus and His disciples fought evil. Speak truth. Share the gospel. Reach people.

That is not doing nothing. That is being obedient to Scripture.

You made the claim that Jesus and His Disciples fought against the world as you ate advocating.

BUT you have provided no passages.

You have not even shown one instance where Jesus condemned the secular government for immorality, much less the economic issues that were oppressing citizens.

Provide Scripture. You can't because no passage supports your position.

Jesus and His Disciples reached individual people. They NEVER tried to change government policy.

If you were right then Jesus was a complete failure. The government remained oppressive. The government even persecuted Chriatians.


You are bailing water out of an sinking ship with a coffee cup, blaming those of us calling people to the lifeboats for the ship sinking.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

Do you not see what I mean by uniting with the world being a compromise?

@Van values the government paying for private school.

To get this he supports a platform that vows to keep on demand abortion a decision for citizens to make. He supports a platform that values the normalization of alternate lifestyles.


@KenH values opposing Trump.

To get this he supports a platform that vows to require hospitals, clinics, and states to perform abortion on demand. He supports a platform that seeks to increase "big government", that seeks to allow parents to transition pre-teen children, that seeks to have the government determine "truth" and censure opposition.

I doubt @Van and @KenH want all that their candidates have promised. But they support those things as a compromise to get the things they want.


All of the world politics is like this because every political side is a side within the "force of darkness).

We cannot support Trump or Harris without supporting what they say they will do if elected.

I am not willing to make those compromises.


Your examples have been based on declaring a liberal view of immigration and economy "evil". You even said that Jesus and His Disciples participated in politics to address evils within their government.


My question is exactly what are you willing to support to get the economic and immigration platform you want? What is your compromise?

Would you be willing to support a platform that vows to allow citizens to decide whether to murder their children?

Would you be willing to support a platform that vows to require hospitals to perform abortion as birth control?

How much evil is too much a compromise?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. You did. And you falsely said I have avoided being salt and light.
The issue is not action vs inaction but how we choose to act.

Jesus and the Disciples chose to reach people, to witness to people in the World.

The Jews wanted a messiah who would would actively fight against the World to bring about a godly government. Jesus disappointed them. His Kingdom is not of this world.

I believe out action should imitate that of Jesus and the Disciples.

You believe we should fight against the evils of the World (what the Jews were looking for in a messiah...their hearts were in the wrong place).


What am I not doing in order to be in but not of the world? Mainly observing but not participating in politics. I am trying not to allow myself to be carried away by worldly things.

But in terms of the forces of darkness, I believe politics has become the main sin crouching outside of a Christians door. It has replaced the gospel of Jesus Christ with a social gospel.


Even if I did engage in politics, I could not support any presidential candidate because I will not support a platform that seeks to make or keep abortion as birth control a choice. I believe abortion is murder.

You continue to claim your inaction is action. I disagree. We see the action of Christ and the apostles but you see it as inaction again we disagree.

We will continue to disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Again you make a false claim.

You believe that Jesus and the Disciples did nothing to fight evil. This is not correct. They fought evil by reaching individuals. This is what I believe is appropriate.

But since you consider Jesus and the Diciples to have stood aside, doing nothing, I suppose that is my answer. If that was good enough for them, I guess it's good enough for me.

You believe Jesus and His Disciples, by "doing nothing" about the government or secular leadership, we're supporting evil. I think the problem here is with you.

Jesus and the disciples did not stand aside as you seem to think. They were engaged with resisting the powers of their time. You do not agree with that so you stand aside. Your choice.

 

[Silverhair]

Again you make a false claim.

You believe that Jesus and the Disciples did nothing to fight evil. This is not correct. They fought evil by reaching individuals. This is what I believe is appropriate.

But since you consider Jesus and the Diciples to have stood aside, doing nothing, I suppose that is my answer. If that was good enough for them, I guess it's good enough for me.

You believe Jesus and His Disciples, by "doing nothing" about the government or secular leadership, we're supporting evil. I think the problem here is with you.

Jesus and the disciples did not stand aside as you seem to think. They were engaged with resisting the powers of their time. You do not agree with that so you stand aside. Your choice.

Again, I choose to fight evil as Jesus and His disciples fought evil. Speak truth. Share the gospel. Reach people.

That is not doing nothing. That is being obedient to Scripture.

You made the claim that Jesus and His Disciples fought against the world as you ate advocating.

BUT you have provided no passages.

You have not even shown one instance where Jesus condemned the secular government for immorality, much less the economic issues that were oppressing citizens.

Provide Scripture. You can't because no passage supports your position.

Jesus and His Disciples reached individual people. They NEVER tried to change government policy.

If you were right then Jesus was a complete failure. The government remained oppressive. The government even persecuted Chriatians.


You are bailing water out of an sinking ship with a coffee cup, blaming those of us calling people to the lifeboats for the ship sinking.

If you can not see Christ and the disciples standing against evil then I can not help you. You have chosen to stand back and let evil have its' way. Again your choice.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

Do you not see what I mean by uniting with the world being a compromise?

@Van values the government paying for private school.

To get this he supports a platform that vows to keep on demand abortion a decision for citizens to make. He supports a platform that values the normalization of alternate lifestyles.


@KenH values opposing Trump.

To get this he supports a platform that vows to require hospitals, clinics, and states to perform abortion on demand. He supports a platform that seeks to increase "big government", that seeks to allow parents to transition pre-teen children, that seeks to have the government determine "truth" and censure opposition.

I doubt @Van and @KenH want all that their candidates have promised. But they support those things as a compromise to get the things they want.


All of the world politics is like this because every political side is a side within the "force of darkness).

We cannot support Trump or Harris without supporting what they say they will do if elected.

I am not willing to make those compromises.


Your examples have been based on declaring a liberal view of immigration and economy "evil". You even said that Jesus and His Disciples participated in politics to address evils within their government.


My question is exactly what are you willing to support to get the economic and immigration platform you want? What is your compromise?

Would you be willing to support a platform that vows to allow citizens to decide whether to murder their children?

Would you be willing to support a platform that vows to require hospitals to perform abortion as birth control?

How much evil is too much a compromise?

You continue to miss what I am saying because you have such a narrow focus. Evil is evil, Christ the disciples and we Christians are to stand against that evil. You do not comprehend that fact.

You have chose to shelter in place and hope the evil does not reach you. And again your choice.