The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

You continue to claim your inaction is action. I disagree. We see the action of Christ and the apostles but you see it as inaction again we disagree.

We will continue to disagree.

Action is action. You are pretending that the only thing we can do as a Christian is vote. You are wrong.

A Christoan can abstain from politics and still take action in standing for Christ.

Jesus, the Disciples, and the Early Church abstained from secular politics. This doesn't mean inaction.

List the actions of Hesus and the Disciples.

Note that NONE of their actions were within secular politics. They sought to influence people (individuals).

You again make false claims about God. That is going too far.

Provide passages of Jesus and the Disciples supporting a political movement to change secular government.

 

[JonC]

Jesus and the disciples did not stand aside as you seem to think. They were engaged with resisting the powers of their time. You do not agree with that so you stand aside. Your choice.

You are making false statements again.

I never advocated standing aside.
I never said Jesus stood aside.

And this demonstrates the danger with Christians unitingvwith the World, focused on the concerns of the World.

You have allowed the World to compromise your character, to make false claims about me, and about God.

I said that we are to take action as Jesus, the Disciples, and the Early Church took action.

Post passages of Jesus engaging the secular government to me the World better.

Post passages of Jesus changing the oppressive government.

Post passages of Jesus addressing the government


You can't. He focused on individuals to change individuals - not the Riman government to make their policies and the World more godly.


Give us thise passages.

 

[JonC]

Jesus and the disciples did not stand aside as you seem to think. They were engaged with resisting the powers of their time. You do not agree with that so you stand aside. Your choice.


If you can not see Christ and the disciples standing against evil then I can not help you. You have chosen to stand back and let evil have its' way. Again your choice.

Agsin with the false claims.

You are allowing the World to destroy your character and witness.

I do see Jesus standing against evil. I have repeatedly said this is the stand we should take as Christians.

I provided many passages.

You claim Jesus engaged the Workd through secular politics to change the World.

You claim that had Jesus not engaged the government (Rome) through political means He would be supporting evil.

BUT you can provide NO PASSAGES to support your claim.

All you have provided is false accusations and invented things about God.

This is what happens when Christiana choose the World over Christ, when they put their hand to the plow and look back, becoming consumed with the concerns of the World.

 

[JonC]

You continue to miss what I am saying because you have such a narrow focus. Evil is evil, Christ the disciples and we Christians are to stand against that evil. You do not comprehend that fact.

You have chose to shelter in place and hope the evil does not reach you. And again your choice.

You are wrong to continue with false claims.

I have repeatedly said we are to follow the example of Jesus. We are to take action. But we are to do kingdom work in kingdom ways.


How did Jesus and the disciples and the early church stand against evil? I am saying DO AS THEY DID.

You call that inaction. But you provide no Biblical examples of Jesus or the disciples engaging the World through secular politics.


How do we take action? We proclaim truth. And we do so boldly. We help those in need. We reach individuals. We seek out those who are considering abortion as their only option and show them a better way. We witness to those migrants coming through our boarders. We witness to and pray for our leaders. We guard against evil.

Post passages of Jesus engaging the World through secular politics.

Which political sect did He join? Which did He support?

 

[Silverhair]

You are wrong to continue with false claims.

I have repeatedly said we are to follow the example of Jesus. We are to take action. But we are to do kingdom work in kingdom ways.


How did Jesus and the disciples and the early church stand against evil? I am saying DO AS THEY DID.

You call that inaction. But you provide no Biblical examples of Jesus or the disciples engaging the World through secular politics.


How do we take action? We proclaim truth. And we do so boldly. We help those in need. We reach individuals. We seek out those who are considering abortion as their only option and show them a better way. We witness to those migrants coming through our boarders. We witness to and pray for our leaders. We guard against evil.

Post passages of Jesus engaging the World through secular politics.

Which political sect did He join? Which did He support?

You continue to do what all those that have no ground to stand on do. Christ and the apostles stood against the powers of their day just as we Christians are to stand against the powers today.

If Christ and the apostles had not stood against the powers of their day then He would not have been crucified and they would not have suffered the persecution they did. We continue to see this even up to our day. How have you missed this?

You do not seem to understand or more likely want to ignore what the bible is teaching us as it does not fit with your present ideas.

You have chosen to deal with it your way and I say you are wrong. Thankfully not all Christians think as you do.

You have made your position clear as have I so continued discussion on this will not get us anywhere.

 

[JonC]

You continue to do what all those that have no ground to stand on do. Christ and the apostles stood against the powers of their day just as we Christians are to stand against the powers today.

The issue is that I am saying we ARE to stand as Christ and Hos disciples did. That IS action.

I provided passages describing their action ans said that is what we SHOULD do. That is what I advocate doing.

BUT that is not what you ate talking about. You are talking about political action within a secular politics system.

Jesus COULD have supported a political sect. Paul COULD have taken a political stance towards the Roman senate. Jesus COULD have been active politically to address immorality, economic oppression, abortion, etc. in the government.

BUT HE DIDN'T. HIS DISCIPLES DIDNT.

By your standard Jesus supported evil by not being politically active.


AGAIN - you provide no passages, just unsubstantiated claims that fail the test of Scripture.

Can you even provide one passage that Jesus supported a political sect to influence the World?????

No, of course you can't.

We must take action - but we have to do kingdom work in kingdom ways.

 

[Mikoo]

This is an interesting thread. I am trying to understand both points of view here. I do have a question based on what I have read here. Here is the scenario:
Two men have entered my home with the intention of robbing and raping my wife and daughter. I would call this evil.
Do I resist their evil attempts to rape my wife and daughter? Or do I turn the other cheek?
I am just trying to understand some other the agreements presented here.

 

[Van]

I disagree.

1. The government taking money from its citizens and distributing that money to parents who want to send their children to private school is socialistic.

There are only two possibilities - take the money in the form of increased taxation or take the money from public schools hurting those who still will have to depend on those schools.

That is the difference. Public schools are public and are already underfunded.

Apply that to roads. You'd take the money used to upkeep public roads and make that money avaliable to people needing to replace private roads.

You are socialistic on this issue.

2. I never claimed you support a Democrat policy. You are a Democrat in principle when it suits your desires.

3. My post was about your compromise.

You stated that you are willing to support making abortion as birth control a decision for American citizens (Trump's platform). Why? Because you want the government to pay for private schools.

Repeating falsehoods only magnifies their falsity.

Taking tax money from folks without school age children for the purpose of educating citizens is not socialism.

Publicly funded indoctrination camps violate the first amendment.

Please stick to the issue and stop trying to change the subject. Obvious deflection

 

[Van]

@Van values the government paying for private school.

To get this he supports a platform that vows to keep on demand abortion a decision for citizens to make. He supports a platform that values the normalization of alternate lifestyles.

Folks, did JonC provide a quote? Nope. What does Van actually support? The government paying for schools in a manner that allows school choice for all citizens, not just those wealthy enough to fund government schools through taxes, and fund the private school of their choice through their discretionary spending.

Yes, I support citizens governing themselves, rather than being compelled by dictators.

And folks, consider this doozy, "he [Van] ...values the normalization of alternate lifestyles." Once again obvious deflection, trying to change the subject by making false and derogatory claims.

The statement says nothing, but implies I support sinful activity.

 

[kyredneck]

This is an interesting thread. I am trying to understand both points of view here. I do have a question based on what I have read here. Here is the scenario:
Two men have entered my home with the intention of robbing and raping my wife and daughter. I would call this evil.
Do I resist their evil attempts to rape my wife and daughter? Or do I turn the other cheek?
I am just trying to understand some other the agreements presented here.

Castle Doctrine

 

[Van]

The church has a purpose to stand up against evil doctrines, thus our local churches should act in unity to vote against the Democrat Party.

1) Which party is pro abortion on demand?

2) Which party is for open borders, facilitating drug related deaths and sex traffic of the poor and helpless.

3) Which party caused inflation by attacking energy production and unproductive overspending?

4) Which party wants to continue control over education.

5) Which party opened the pathway for Iran to fund terror on October 7?

 

[Mikoo]

Castle Doctrine

I would like to read what JonC has to say about the scenario.

 

[JonC]

Scripture tells us why the government crucified Jesus. The Jews gave Him over to be killed.

Scripture tells us why the Jews handed Him over. They feared He would spark a rebellion (they viewed Jesus as being.....well.....like you....but Jesus corrected them).

Repeating falsehoods only magnifies their falsity.

Taking tax money from folks without school age children for the purpose of educating citizens is not socialism.

Publicly funded indoctrination camps violate the first amendment.

Please stick to the issue and stop trying to change the subject. Obvious deflection

Public education is what our tax money is used for, and I agree that is not socialism. Those funds build and maintain schools, pay utilities, education materials, staff and teachers. I get that.

But you are talking about the government paying parents to send their children to private schools. That is different.

THE MAIN POINT, however, is what compromises you are willing to make to get what you want.

You answered that you will support Trump.

This means you will support the citizens right to decide whether to allow abortions as birth control. This means you will support gay/ transgender communities (I'm not saying the government should oppress them, but the support provided is not Christian).

That is what Christians need to decide. What do you want? What compromises are you willing to make to get what you want?


I view you as a political evil because I am opposed to the support of abortion and the normalization of alternate lifestyles by our church members.

You view school. choice as a good that outweighs immorality.

 

[JonC]

I would like to read what JonC has to say about the scenario.

I don't have a problem with protecting one's family.

I'd prefer shoot to wound. In KY this is known as "let 'em die slowly".

I would not shoot somebody who was trying to take my property (I own nothing more valuable than a human life).

If it were me and an intruder I'd be less likely to shoot. But to protect my family I would.

Come to think of it....bear spray would be more effective (don't have to aim well, don't have to worry about a bullet going through and hitting somebody else, and the guy isn't going to shoot you after being sprayed)

 

[Mikoo]

I don't have a problem with protecting one's family.

I'd prefer shoot to wound. In KY this is known as "let 'em die slowly".

I would not shoot somebody who was trying to take my property (I own nothing more valuable than a human life).

If it were me and an intruder I'd be less likely to shoot. But to protect my family I would.

Come to think of it....bear spray would be more effective (don't have to aim well, don't have to worry about a bullet going through and hitting somebody else, and the guy isn't going to shoot you after being sprayed)

So God's command to resist evil would not apply in this situation?

 

[JonC]

So God's command to resist evil would not apply in this situation?

God's command to resist evil still applies.

I'm not sure why you think that defending my family from an intruder would be evil. I need you to provide a bit more about that conclusion.

 

[Mikoo]

God's command to resist evil still applies.

I'm not sure why you think that defending my family from an intruder would be evil. I need you to provide a bit more about that conclusion.

I would defend my family also. I agree with you. That's why I am asking for clarification on the verses you are using in you argument to not get involved in this world. . Resist evil. Resist not evil. Turn the other cheek. Jesus doing nothing when the were beating Him and hanging Him on a cross.

 

[JonC]

I would defend my family also. I agree with you. That's why I am asking for clarification on the verses you are using in you argument to not get involved in this world. . Resist evil. Resist not evil. Turn the other cheek. Jesus doing nothing when the were beating Him and hanging Him on a cross.

We are to resist evil in our lives.

And Jesus also said "resist not evil" (in the context of people doing evil to you....they did the same to Him).

Insofar as getting involved in the World, I believe we should follow Jesus' example.

We are involved, but through Christ (not by becoming of the World).


In Jesus' time they lived under a fairly oppressive government. There was immorality. There were abortions. The tax policy was unjust. Homosexuality was practiced and advocated by that community. There were political divisions.

Which political sect did Jesus join? What did Jesus say about those secular groups?

What about Paul? He never engaged the worldly powers to change the world, much less participate in politics. He told Christians that they were once like those in the world, but he didn't become a part of that World.


And then you have the compromises. Politics is compromise.

Anybody who supports the GOP, DNC, or Libertarian party are actively supporting abortion as choice.

Each has to decide of that is worth what they think they may gain.

In terms of your question, I would not try to kill anybody to defend my family. But I would try to defend them. I certainly wouldn't shoot somebody just for breaking in my house.

As far as the verses go, I have already provided them in this thread.

 

[JonC]

@Mikoo

I think one of the biggest issues about becoming a part of the World to change the World is we have to comoromise our faith.

You, for example, cannot support a political party in the US without supporting abortion as a choice (either an individual right or an issue for the people to decide).

But that is how our politics is designed (it is a government of the people), so by definition it is evil and a compromise. It is worldly.

 

[Mikoo]

We are to resist evil in our lives.

And Jesus also said "resist not evil" (in the context of people doing evil to you....they did the same to Him).

Insofar as getting involved in the World, I believe we should follow Jesus' example.

We are involved, but through Christ (not by becoming of the World).


In Jesus' time they lived under a fairly oppressive government. There was immorality. There were abortions. The tax policy was unjust. Homosexuality was practiced and advocated by that community. There were political divisions.

Which political sect did Jesus join? What did Jesus say about those secular groups?

What about Paul? He never engaged the worldly powers to change the world, much less participate in politics. He told Christians that they were once like those in the world, but he didn't become a part of that World.


And then you have the compromises. Politics is compromise.

Anybody who supports the GOP, DNC, or Libertarian party are actively supporting abortion as choice.

Each has to decide of that is worth what they think they may gain.

In terms of your question, I would not try to kill anybody to defend my family. But I would try to defend them. I certainly wouldn't shoot somebody just for breaking in my house.

As far as the verses go, I have already provided them in this thread.

Okay. So you wouldn't 'turn the other cheek'.