The Social Gospel?

[Mikoo]

Why was John the Baptist imprisoned?

 

[JonC]

To vote or not vote is your choice but you do not get to tell others they are compromised because they disagree with your view. By your errant standard all those Christians that used sinful governments to stamp out greater evils were compromised.

If they had all held your view then those evils would persist to this day. God has used good Christian men and women within sinful governments to bring about His goal.

I agree that we are all held responsible for what we do and for what we fail to do.

And your view is that if they do support a political party then they are compromised. What you fail to realize is that a Christian can mentor women seeking abortions, help them turn to better solutions, work with the youth, reach out to gay members of the community, feed the poor, work to house the homeless, share the gospel and still support the political party that they believe will help stem the tide of sin so as to oppose the one that would endorse it.

We live in a fallen world and God expects us to work within that fallen world to show them there is a better way even if that means doing so through a sinful power.

For me to see professing Christians supporting abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality and remain silent, as you suggest, would be inaction....standing back and doing nothing against evil.

We are called to address evil within Christianity.

A Christian who supports a platform that normalizes homosexuality and views abortion as choice is a compromised Christian. Period.

I am commanded by God to resist evil within our faith. You are a part of that evil I am commanded to resist (a Christian supporting abortion as choice and normalization of homosexuality as a compromise for political gains).

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

You need to justify your insistence that fighting evil in the world is right but opposing evil within Christianity is wrong.

You said you speak out against abortion and the normalization of homosexuality, but at the same time your suggested action is to support a platform that seeks abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality.

I have to say I am more persuaded of your true self by your actions over your speech.


Most professing Christians support Same Sex Marriage, the normalization of homosexuality, and abortion in most cases.

I believe this is because Chriatians, like you, were willing for so long to compromise their faith.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not making judgments. I am stating facts.

Abortion and homosexuality are evils of this world.

Your post proves my point.

You say that you have spoken out against abortion and homosexuality.

You also say a Chriatian should support a platform that advocates abortion as a choice and the normalization of homosexuality.

By definition that is hypocrisy.

That is compromise.

And you obviously did not read your Bible when you offered those "examples".


You present Jesus and His disciples as doing evil by not partnering with a political sect to change the Roman government. You present Jesus as "doing nothing"



Do you really believe thar Jesus was wrong not to have fought against the ungodliness of the Roman government?

Do you really believe that Jesus was doing evil not to fight against the social issues (like economic plans, government oppression, abortion, homosexuality, taxation policies, assimilation of immigrants, etc)?

Were you actually in doubt that abortion and homosexuality are evils of this world? I have known this for years and that is why I have spoken out against it. Have you?

You have said that we are not to "resist evil" so if you really believe that then why do you bother counseling anyone about their sin. Your just resisting evil when you do. So that would make you a hypocrite. Or do you compromise your faith and make a choice to resist that evil as best you can?

It is a good thing that most Christians do not think as you do. But then again by your standard they are just compromised people lacking in faith. Rather judgemental of you Jon.

We are not speaking of what Christ and the Apostles did or did not do. We are speaking about what your position is. You have taken a verse out of context in the attempt to support your stand. You have made accusations that people have to compromise their faith or that they lack faith if they vote for what you call the lesser evil.

You may want to continue this circular discussion but I do find it rather a waste of time. You have shown your narrow extra biblical view and can not accept the error of that view.

 

[JonC]

Were you actually in doubt that abortion and homosexuality are evils of this world? I have known this for years and that is why I have spoken out against it. Have you?

You have said that we are not to "resist evil" so if you really believe that then why do you bother counseling anyone about their sin. Your just resisting evil when you do. So that would make you a hypocrite. Or do you compromise your faith and make a choice to resist that evil as best you can?

It is a good thing that most Christians do not think as you do. But then again by your standard they are just compromised people lacking in faith. Rather judgemental of you Jon.

We are not speaking of what Christ and the Apostles did or did not do. We are speaking about what your position is. You have taken a verse out of context in the attempt to support your stand. You have made accusations that people have to compromise their faith or that they lack faith if they vote for what you call the lesser evil.

You may want to continue this circular discussion but I do find it rather a waste of time. You have shown your narrow extra biblical view and can not accept the error of that view.

I was not in doubt that those issues were evil.

Would you support an agenda or political platform that protects those evils - that holds abortion as a choice, vows not to ban abortion, that normalizes homosexuality?

Your answer is "absolutely"

That is compromising your faith.

You actively support evil because you like the economic and immigration plans of that evil platform and believe the opposing platform worse on the things you actually care about.

That is not a circular discussion.

I will not willingly support evil.
You will actively support evil.

It is that simple.

How would you defend your actions to one of those children murdered under the agenda you support? Wait....I know: "Well, your life was worth less than my comfort...and I only supported your murder because the other party would have killed you anyway".

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

There is absolutely nothing you can say that will change my mind that supporting an agenda to keep abortion a choice and the normalization of homosexuality is not evil.

You seem to think supporting those things are fine as long as your intentions are good.

I believe that evil is evil, and supporting evil is always evil.

In the OT God used evil, but it would be a mistake to read into that He supported the evil He used.

I use evil as an example of darkness to highlight the gospel. I use you as an example of Christians compromising their faith to encourage others to flee from evil. I use the DNC and GOP as examples of the "forces of darkness" Scrioture warned us about.

But I refuse to support the evil you have embraced as a means to fight other evils.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

There is absolutely nothing you can say that will change my mind that supporting an agenda to keep abortion a choice and the normalization of homosexuality is not evil.

You seem to think supporting those things are fine as long as your intentions are good.

I believe that evil is evil, and supporting evil is always evil.

In the OT God used evil, but it would be a mistake to read into that He supported the evil He used.

I use evil as an example of darkness to highlight the gospel. I use you as an example of Christians compromising their faith to encourage others to flee from evil. I use the DNC and GOP as examples of the "forces of darkness" Scrioture warned us about.

But I refuse to support the evil you have embraced as a means to fight other evils.

I am use to many on here that try to justify their views by disparaging those they disagree with. That fact that your view calls into question the faith of many stalwart Christians that have used sinful governments to move the plan of God forward is disgraceful.

You try to justify your position by using an out of context verse. For someone that claims to have theological degrees you seem shockingly deceived. Perhaps it is just your pride the has caused you to make this error.

What you choose to do is your matter but that you would claim that those that disagree with you are in some way compromising their faith just shows your arrogance.

As they say, Pride goes before the fall.

 

[JonC]

I am use to many on here that try to justify their views by disparaging those they disagree with. That fact that your view calls into question the faith of many stalwart Christians that have used sinful governments to move the plan of God forward is disgraceful.

You try to justify your position by using an out of context verse. For someone that claims to have theological degrees you seem shockingly deceived. Perhaps it is just your pride the has caused you to make this error.

What you choose to do is your matter but that you would claim that those that disagree with you are in some way compromising their faith just shows your arrogance.

As they say, Pride goes before the fall.

I am not questioning your or any persons faith. I am simply saying that abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality is evil.

Supporting those evils is evil.

It appears you are working very hard to justify evil. That is why you view my refusal to support evil as pride. But it isn't. It is obedience.

You cast obedience as pride for a reason. You know in your heart that abortion and homosexuality is evil. You are simply trying to defend your support of those evils.

But that is fine. The World has often mischaracterized the obedience of Christians as "pride". We resist participating and supporting evil. And we speak against evil. The World calls this "pride" because it is not supportinh the evil they embrace.


But no. My refusal to support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with Christ and Him in me.

 

[JonC]

You try to justify your position by using an out of context verse. For someone that claims to have theological degrees you seem shockingly deceived. Perhaps it is just your pride the has caused you to make this error.

You are wrong.

I am not trying to justify my position. My position does not need to be justified.

It is simple.

1. I believe abortion and homosexuality is evil.

2. I believe that an agenda that enforces abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality is evil.

3. I believe that supporting evil is evil.

4. I refuse to knowingly support evil.

It is not the deep theological problem you try to make it out to be. It is simply resisting doing evil.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not questioning your or any persons faith. I am simply saying that abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality is evil.

Supporting those evils is evil.

It appears you are working very hard to justify evil. That is why you view my refusal to support evil as pride. But it isn't. It is obedience.

You cast obedience as pride for a reason. You know in your heart that abortion and homosexuality is evil. You are simply trying to defend your support of those evils.

But that is fine. The World has often mischaracterized the obedience of Christians as "pride". We resist participating and supporting evil. And we speak against evil. The World calls this "pride" because it is not supportinh the evil they embrace.


But no. My refusal to support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with Christ and Him in me.

When you say those that vote have compromised their faith that is attacking their faith. You still do not accept the fact that good Christians worked within various governments to bring about change. By your stated views they lacked faith.

You have misunderstood clear scripture and even when that was pointed out to you you still ignore the truth.

I understand that you call it obedience but it is just your obedience to your misunderstanding of the text.

 

[JonC]

When you say those that vote have compromised their faith that is attacking their faith. You still do not accept the fact that good Christians worked within various governments to bring about change. By your stated views they lacked faith.

You have misunderstood clear scripture and even when that was pointed out to you you still ignore the truth.

I understand that you call it obedience but it is just your obedience to your misunderstanding of the text.

I am not attacking those who have compromised their faith to support evil. I am merely stating an obvious fact.

Chriatians were not saved to support evil. Christians were saved to do good works.

You say supporting evil is necessary and good. I say supporting evil is wrong.

You have misunderstood Scripture. God never told us to support evil.

AND you never posted a passage commanding us to support evil. You claim you did, but you never actually did.

You claimed that Jesus and His disciples supported a worldly political power in order to influence the World. But you never actually proved a passage.

My stand remains. I WILL NOT support evil. The outcome you get supporting evil is no less evil than your opposition. Evil is evil. We are called to be a holy people, set aside, called out, a people of God. You are missing that calling.

I do agree with you that by standing in Christ and refusing to support evil it is a type of attack on the compromised faith of Christians who choose to support evil. But that is what it is to be "salt and light".

I have no desire to appear as I approve of a compromised faith. I don't. But more importantly God says He will hold these accountable.

I want to proclaim as loudly as possible that Chriatians who support the normalization of homosexuality and abortion as choice are compromised and are a danger to Christianity so that others will not "put their hand to the plow" and turn back to the concerns of the World.

That is how we use evil - as the darkness we oppose, NOT by supporting it but by standing apart from it.

 

[Silverhair]

You are wrong.

I am not trying to justify my position. My position does not need to be justified.

It is simple.

1. I believe abortion and homosexuality is evil.

2. I believe that an agenda that enforces abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality is evil.

3. I believe that supporting evil is evil.

4. I refuse to knowingly support evil.

It is not the deep theological problem you try to make it out to be. It is simply resisting doing evil.

And you can continue to believe what you want but that still does not give you the right to condemn those that see their Christian duty is to work through the government to stem the tide of those evils.

 

[JonC]

And you can continue to believe what you want but that still does not give you the right to condemn those that see their Christian duty is to work through the government to stem the tide of those evils.

I am not condemning them.. The world is already condemned.

It is our duty to stem the tide of those evils, but not by joining in that tide.

I merely observe that you support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality, but say you speak against those evils nonetheless. That is by definition being compromised.

You cannot stem the tide of those evils while supporting those evils.

Your interests, by your posts, is immigration and economics. You support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality to gain those secular policies.


If Christians refused to compromise wirh evil, refused to support evil, then political parties would change to try and get their vote.

But why should they change as you are more than willing to support Same Sex Marriage, transgender equality, abortion, and the normalization of homosexuality as a compromise?

 

[Silverhair]

I am not attacking those who have compromised their faith to support evil. I am merely stating an obvious fact.

Chriatians were not saved to support evil. Christians were saved to do good works.

You say supporting evil is necessary and good. I say supporting evil is wrong.

You have misunderstood Scripture. God never told us to support evil.

AND you never posted a passage commanding us to support evil. You claim you did, but you never actually did.

You claimed that Jesus and His disciples supported a worldly political power in order to influence the World. But you never actually proved a passage.


My stand remains. I WILL NOT support evil. The outcome you get supporting evil is no less evil than your opposition. Evil is evil.

We are called to be a holy people, set aside, called out, a people of God.

You are missing that calling.

There you go again questioning their faith. You call it compromising their faith and they say it is exercising their faith. You just do not like the idea the people do not see the world through your glasses.

The good work those Christians are doing is resisting the evil through the use of their government.

Where have I ever claimed we are to support evil?

I said God has used the powers of this world to accomplish His goal. Do you disagree with that?

By your standard none of the OT saints or the NT ones really had faith, they were all compromised.

And I see that you have questioned my faith once again even though say you do not.

 

[Mikoo]

...

It is our duty to stem the tide of those evils, but not by joining in that tide.

...

And what are you doing to 'stem the tide of those evils'?

 

[Silverhair]

I am not condemning them.. The world is already condemned.

It is our duty to stem the tide of those evils, but not by joining in that tide.

I merely observe that you support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality, but say you speak against those evils nonetheless. That is by definition being compromised.

You cannot stem the tide of those evils while supporting those evils.

Your interests, by your posts, is immigration and economics. You support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality to gain those secular policies.


If Christians refused to compromise wirh evil, refused to support evil, then political parties would change to try and get their vote.

But why should they change as you are more than willing to support Same Sex Marriage, transgender equality, abortion, and the normalization of homosexuality as a compromise?

I have to ask what posts are you reading. You continue to say I support views that I do not.

Now if you were really going to resist the evil in this world as you try to say you do then where do you shop, who do you work for, what charities do you support?

You can not claim the high ground when you still live in this world. You are supporting evil just by living your daily life.

 

[JonC]

I have to ask what posts are you reading. You continue to say I support views that I do not.

Now if you were really going to resist the evil in this world as you try to say you do then where do you shop, who do you work for, what charities do you support?

You can not claim the high ground when you still live in this world. You are supporting evil just by living your daily life.

Yes, Christians who abstain from secular politics live the gospel in their daily lives. We take action to share the gospel, counsel women seeking abortion and offering better ways, feeding the poor, reaching out to the LGBTQ community in love with the gospel, mowing lawns for those who can't, repairing cars for widows, providing shelters for the homeless, providing safe housing for abused women, ....this week removing trees....you know...all those things you say is "doing nothing".

BUT our stand against evil includes taking action against men like you who would compromise their faith to support evil (this is guarding our churches against sin).

I do not care about "higher ground", but I can't imagine any lower ground than the one upon which you now stand.

The reason is I can think of no greater evil in our society than murdering a child in its mother's womb.


I think it would be better for Christians to do absolutely nothing than to support the evil with which you have chosen to identify. At least they wouldn't share the guilt with you.

But we do take action. You just do not like that our actions is a stand against the powers of darkness because this means it includes a stand against your chosen position.

 

[JonC]

And what are you doing to 'stem the tide of those evils'?

I participate and support in "the Body of Christ" rather than the powers of evil to address these issues.

In regard to those two evils we provide counseling, education, care and the gospel to women seeking abortion. If needed we place these women with families who help meet their physical needs during their pregnancy and support post-delivery. We reach out to the gay community in live with the gospel of Jesus Christ. We provide meals and food for these people as their need requires.

And, just as important, I actively point out people who support the enemy, who support political agendas that that advocate abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality yet profess Christianity. I do this to help guard others in my church from compromising their faith by supporting evil. The reason is God states in Scripture that we (Christians) will be held accountable for our "words and deeds". It is important to guard our churches against sin....to include supporting evil.

 

[JonC]

You continue to say I support views that I do not.
[/QUOTEI asked you who you support in Canada. Then I asked who you woukd support in the US. You answered the CCP and GOP.

The CCP policy is the normalization or continued normalization of homosexuality. They value "the freedom of individual Canadians to pursue their enlightened and legitimate self-interest". Like the GOP, the CCP rejects any legislative action to ban abortion. And like the GOP, the majority of CCP sheeple hold that abortion in most cases should be made avaliable.

You stated that you support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality by stating the "powers of darkness" that you support.

You stated that by demeaning my position that I refuse to support any political agenda that views abortion as choice and homosexuality as normal.

 

[Mikoo]

I participate and support in "the Body of Christ" rather than the powers of evil to address these issues.

In regard to those two evils we provide counseling, education, care and the gospel to women seeking abortion. If needed we place these women with families who help meet their physical needs during their pregnancy and support post-delivery. We reach out to the gay community in live with the gospel of Jesus Christ. We provide meals and food for these people as their need requires.

And, just as important, I actively point out people who support the enemy, who support political agendas that that advocate abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality yet profess Christianity. I do this to help guard others in my church from compromising their faith by supporting evil. The reason is God states in Scripture that we (Christians) will be held accountable for our "words and deeds". It is important to guard our churches against sin....to include supporting evil.

That's sounds nice. But how does that 'stem the tide ("Stem the tide" is an idiom that means to stop or change the course of an unfavorable trend or tendency)of those evils' in the USA? It is legal in this country to murder your baby in the womb and marry a person of the same sex.

 

[JonC]

That's sounds nice. But how does that 'stem the tide ("Stem the tide" is an idiom that means to stop or change the course of an unfavorable trend or tendency)of those evils' in the USA? It is legal in this country to murder your baby in the womb and marry a person of the same sex.

I think most Christians realize the World will not abandon evil and turn to God. It is a very unChriatian idea to believe otherwise, much less strive to nullify Scripture by working to purify the World of sin.

But to answer your question, it helps to "stem the tide" by reaching women seeking abortions and offering them alternative choices, offering them the gospel.

It is legal in the US to murder children in the womb. And homosexuality is normal.

That does not mean I am required to support a political party that guarantees to keep it so.

Funny thing is the government should treat it's citizen, regardless of sexual orientation, the same. The government should not discriminate against many of the evils it supports.

The reason is the government is secular. It is of the nation....of the World.

BUT Christians should discriminate in the powers they support. They should discriminate against evil.


When I see a Christian supporting the GOP and speaking against abortion as choice even and the normalization of homosexuality I see a hypocrite. They say one thing but actively support another.

I get what Christians believe. Don't tell me what you believe. Show me. Show me by refusing to support powers of darkness, by refusing to support any political power that treats abortion as choice or normalizes homosexuality.

That I can respect, even if we disagree theologically.

But no Christian should testify of Christ while supporting a party that normalizes homosexuality and vows to keep abortion a choice. That does more damage the witness of Christians everywhere than the DNC could possibly do.

We expect the DNC to be evil. It doesn't seek to hide its wolf identity. But the GOP is more dangerous to our faith because it wears sheep's clothing and has caused many professing Christians to compromise their faith.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, Christians who abstain from secular politics live the gospel in their daily lives. We take action to share the gospel, counsel women seeking abortion and offering better ways, feeding the poor, reaching out to the LGBTQ community in love with the gospel, mowing lawns for those who can't, repairing cars for widows, providing shelters for the homeless, providing safe housing for abused women, ....this week removing trees....you know...all those things you say is "doing nothing".

BUT our stand against evil includes taking action against men like you who would compromise their faith to support evil (this is guarding our churches against sin).

I do not care about "higher ground", but I can't imagine any lower ground than the one upon which you now stand.

The reason is I can think of no greater evil in our society than murdering a child in its mother's womb.


I think it would be better for Christians to do absolutely nothing than to support the evil with which you have chosen to identify. At least they wouldn't share the guilt with you.

But we do take action. You just do not like that our actions is a stand against the powers of darkness because this means it includes a stand against your chosen position.

You are getting rather insulting with your comments Jon. Not what I would call a Christian attitude.

You just can not accept the fact the Christians through the years have worked within sinful governments to accomplish a greater good.

Strange how God does not look at sin on the same sliding scale you do. While I am willing to step into the den and fight for the truth of God you seem to think that is a terrible thing to do.

The fact is you do support evil when you live your daily life. Do you shop at work at get your entertainment at any place that supports DEI? If you do then you are compromising your faith according to your standard.

You should be thankful that Christians are willing to confront the evil where it is. If we were all like you then sin and evil would have free run in this world.

The one that has compromised their faith is you Jon. You have turned tail and covered your head lest you suffer any persecution. You are not willing to defend the weakest among us. You say you stand against the murdering a child in its mother's womb but you refuse to do anything to stop it happening up to and even after birth.

So I will continue to call out your hypocrisy.

 

[Silverhair]

Who is the CCP?

The GOP wants to at least do something to stop the wholesale slaughter of the unborn. And we can win the fight if we are at the very least involved in the fight. You have just decided to throw in the towel and give up and let the slaughter continue. As a Christian you should hang your head in shame.

Many Christians have chosen to enter the political fray over the years either directly or by casting their vote. You have chosen the easy way out.

Do you actually think those Christians that become involved in the fight do not also do as you claim you do?