The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

You are getting rather insulting with your comments Jon. Not what I would call a Christian attitude.

You just can not accept the fact the Christians through the years have worked within sinful governments to accomplish a greater good.

Strange how God does not look at sin on the same sliding scale you do. While I am willing to step into the den and fight for the truth of God you seem to think that is a terrible thing to do.

The fact is you do support evil when you live your daily life. Do you shop at work at get your entertainment at any place that supports DEI? If you do then you are compromising your faith according to your standard.

You should be thankful that Christians are willing to confront the evil where it is. If we were all like you then sin and evil would have free run in this world.

The one that has compromised their faith is you Jon. You have turned tail and covered your head lest you suffer any persecution. You are not willing to defend the weakest among us. You say you stand against the murdering a child in its mother's womb but you refuse to do anything to stop it happening up to and even after birth.

So I will continue to call out your hypocrisy.

I understand why you would consider rejecting evil to be an insult. But it isn't. You take it that way because you have chosen to compromise and support a "force of evil" (supporting a world power that assigns abortion as choice and normalizes homosexuality).

I am not sure exactly why the only action you believe to be valid is one "of the World". You should read your Bible and pay attention to how Jesus and the Apostles addressed evil.

I actually stand against abortion by standing in Christ. We are very active in reaching out to women seeking abortion.

I also stand against abortion by opposing people like you - people who view abortion as an issue to compromise.

At some level you know that you have compromised your faith. That is why you lash out with false accusations, calling taking action against evil and inaction, condemning Jesus for not setting up a secular government, not addressing the evil government of the 1st century.

We have arrived at a moment in time where even professing Christians, like yourself, call evil "good", and good "evil". This is how the World will be according to Scripture. Many will put their hands to the plow and turn back.

 

[JonC]

The GOP wants to at least do something to stop the wholesale slaughter of the unborn. And we can win the fight if we are at the very least involved in the fight. You have just decided to throw in the towel and give up and let the slaughter continue. As a Christian you should hang your head in shame.

Many Christians have chosen to enter the political fray over the years either directly or by casting their vote. You have chosen the easy way out.

Do you actually think those Christians that become involved in the fight do not also do as you claim you do?

The GOP wants to keep abortion as a choice. The DNC wants to force states and facilities to provide abortion.

I am not throwing in the towel. Christians who believe the only way to stand against one abortion policy is to support keeping abortion a choice have thrown in the towel.

And they are actively supporting evil.

Abortion as a choice is evil. You can't see that because you have compromised your faith. So you support abortion while speaking against abortion. Who cares? You ride the fence, trying your best to keep one foot in each world.

It would be better that you were hot or cold.

Do many professing Christians help pro-life causes while at the same time supporting abortion as a choice? Yes, I'm sure many do.

Many will hear "well done my good and faithful servant". Many will escape with their lives as one escapes a fire. Many will put their hand to the plow and turn back. Many will allow the concerns of this world choak out the gospel that had sprung up. Many will cry out "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I never knew you".

Abortion is evil. You actively support abortion as a choice to prevent what you believe a greater evil. I choose not to support evil.

In the end it will be God who rewards, who welcomes, who holds accountable, and who condemns. You don't answer to me, and I don't answer to you. You make your choice, and I will make mine.

 

[Silverhair]

The GOP wants to keep abortion as a choice. The DNC wants to force states and facilities to provide abortion.

I am not throwing in the towel. Christians who believe the only way to stand against one abortion policy is to support keeping abortion a choice have thrown in the towel.

And they are actively supporting evil.

Abortion as a choice is evil. You can't see that because you have compromised your faith. So you support abortion while speaking against abortion. Who cares? You ride the fence, trying your best to keep one foot in each world.

It would be better that you were hot or cold.

Do many professing Christians help pro-life causes while at the same time supporting abortion as a choice? Yes, I'm sure many do.

Many will hear "well done my good and faithful servant". Many will escape with their lives as one escapes a fire. Many will put their hand to the plow and turn back. Many will allow the concerns of this world choak out the gospel that had sprung up. Many will cry out "Lord, Lord" only to hear "I never knew you".

Abortion is evil. You actively support abortion as a choice to prevent what you believe a greater evil. I choose not to support evil.

In the end it will be God who rewards, who welcomes, who holds accountable, and who condemns. You don't answer to me, and I don't answer to you. You make your choice, and I will make mine.

So all those Christians that worked within the governments of their time to resist the evils in the world just threw in the towel. That is a foolish idea Jon. Actually I am a realist. I know that the men wants to keep all the sins in place so the only way we can combat them is by working within the powers that be. Your idea of standing back and not being involved is just the cowards why out.

Bu your doing nothing you are just supporting those that want all the sins in place. You have not just compromised your faith you have surrendered to the evil you say to are resisting.

 

[JonC]

So all those Christians that worked within the governments of their time to resist the evils in the world just threw in the towel. .

All of those Christians who support evil to "resist evil"? Yes. They have thrown the towel and picked up another. They have exchanged the fight against the powers and principalities of the World for a political agenda.

In other words, they have stopped resisting evil. Instead they embrace evil and encourage others to do the same in order to fight against different evils.

But in the end, it is the same forces of evil that they embrace and struggle against.

To support abortion as choice in order to fight against hospitals being required to perform abortion is essentially the same evil.

This is where I say we should not compromise. We should stand in Christ, which is a stand against evil (all evil).

Abortion as choice is no less evil than requiring hospitals to make abortions avaliable.

 

[JonC]

@Silverhair

The bottom line is that IF I choose to stand against abortion THEN I have no choice but to oppose you because you support a political agenda that vows to maintain abortion as choice.

If I oppose requiring hospitals to make abortions avaliable then I have to oppose the DNC.

My position is simply that I oppose abortion as choice AND requiring hospitals to make abortion avaliable.

We do not have to choose to support one evil or the other. We can resist both evils.


If Christians refused to compromise their faith then perhaps more people would be saved and society would change. This will not happen because Christians have already compromised their faith. Most professing Christisns support abortion in most cases and most support same sex marriage. The compromises you have made, those compromises you encourage others to make, have already created dead and lukewarm churches.

What Christians need to do is take action, be very active, but remain faithful. Be salt and light - in but not of the World. Abstain from all evil. Work to reach individuals. Work to reduce abortions. Work to feed the hungry, help the poor, house the homeless. Work to reach the gay community.

When you support murdering children as a choice you do the same to Christ.

You simply choose the easy way out. You pick one side to fight (the availability of abortion) while embracing abortion as choice with smiley glad hands.

By definition you are pro-choice. You may talk like you are pro-life, but your support goes to keeping abortion as a choice and actions speak louder than words.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair

The bottom line is that IF I choose to stand against abortion THEN I have no choice but to oppose you because you support a political agenda that vows to maintain abortion as choice.

If I oppose requiring hospitals to make abortions avaliable then I have to oppose the DNC.

My position is simply that I oppose abortion as choice AND requiring hospitals to make abortion avaliable.

We do not have to choose to support one evil or the other. We can resist both evils.


If Christians refused to compromise their faith then perhaps more people would be saved and society would change. This will not happen because Christians have already compromised their faith. Most professing Christisns support abortion in most cases and most support same sex marriage. The compromises you have made, those compromises you encourage others to make, have already created dead and lukewarm churches.

What Christians need to do is take action, be very active, but remain faithful. Be salt and light - in but not of the World. Abstain from all evil. Work to reach individuals. Work to reduce abortions. Work to feed the hungry, help the poor, house the homeless. Work to reach the gay community.

When you support murdering children as a choice you do the same to Christ.

You simply choose the easy way out. You pick one side to fight (the availability of abortion) while embracing abortion as choice with smiley glad hands.

By definition you are pro-choice. You may talk like you are pro-life, but your support goes to keeping abortion as a choice and actions speak louder than words.

Jon to be blunt you are being a hypocrite when you support DEI through your life choices and then say you are resisting evil by not casting a vote.

You continue to disparage all those Christians who have through faith stood against the evil even from within the sinful powers of their day.

What you choose to do is your choice but you do not get to judge others although you have claimed that position.

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stand back and do nothing.

Through your in action you are actually furthering the evil you say you want to resist.

I have noticed that your comments toward me have become more hyperbolic as you have come to realize the emptiness of your position and yet you struggle to support it.

I do pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.

This discussion has gone on long enough so I will give you the last word.

 

[JonC]

Jon to be blunt you are being a hypocrite when you support DEI through your life choices and then say you are resisting evil by not casting a vote.

You continue to disparage all those Christians who have through faith stood against the evil even from within the sinful powers of their day.

What you choose to do is your choice but you do not get to judge others although you have claimed that position.

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stand back and do nothing.

Through your in action you are actually furthering the evil you say you want to resist.

I have noticed that your comments toward me have become more hyperbolic as you have come to realize the emptiness of your position and yet you struggle to support it.

I do pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.

This discussion has gone on long enough so I will give you the last word.

Again with false claims.

DEI is not something I support, but it is also not anti-Christian (it is an illogical program). Abortion is evil.

My comments towards you have not changed. They remain very simple and true.

1. Abortion is evil.
2. The normalization of homosexuality is evil.
3. Supporting evil is evil.

You support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality.

That means you support evil.

It does not take a theologian to grasp the fact that you have compromised your faith.


This is the danger of merging Christianity with the World. Politics is compromise. Trying to "serve two masters" requires compromises. It compromises our faith.


I have taken a position that it is wrong to support evil even if that evil is against another evil.

You not only support evil but you encourage others to do so as well. You call evil "good" and good "evil".

With abortion, I cannot support abortion as choice in order to fight the required availability of abortion. Both positions are equally evil.

The solution is to stand in Christ and reach people to change hearts. Address the desire to murder a child rather than trying to control how this child is murdered.

 

[JonC]

The bottom line is Christians are to refrain from doing evil. We are to refrain from supporting evil.

When we turn to the World to solve the issue of evil we are turning away from God. When we support evil we are walking in the flesh.

Christians need to be active, to be salt and light in this world. We need to reach out to people with the gospel of Jesus Chriat. We need to work to prevent abortion, work to protect children, work to feed the hungry, work to house the homeless, work to help the poor, work to reach the homosexual community. But we do this work in Christ's name, not by becoming of the world.

We flee from evil. We do not support one evil to "fight" another.

 

[DaveXR650]

The solution is to stand in Christ and reach people to change hearts. Address the desire to murder a child rather than trying to control how this child is murdered.

I would just say that your reasoning has some loose ends. Is the only way a Christian can act is if you change every individual heart so that eventually no one wants an abortion? That would be ideal but the fact is, even those say that are really just describing how to get a meaningful number of people in order to effect change using the God given power of government. If 75% of fellow citizens want abortion legal in some cases and at certain times but 75% also do not want it used as birth control after a certain time why in the world would you not try to at least save the babies that are possible to save.

Look back through this thread and you will see that not only are you taking a purist stance where I might at least respect your position, but you go on and attack those who at least want to try to do something concrete that will save some lives.
Unless you can make some argument that getting involved in a compromised political process would do more actual harm than good, then your argument is untenable.

I hope you understand how bad this looks on you. If you simply can't vote this time fine. But these posts show you acting offended that someone would question you - yet all the while you are actively questioning someone's position by falsely claiming that they are somehow helping decide how to kill babies - the very same babies that you are content to let die as long as you can avoid compromise.

 

[JonC]

I would just say that your reasoning has some loose ends. Is the only way a Christian can act is if you change every individual heart so that eventually no one wants an abortion? That would be ideal but the fact is, even those say that are really just describing how to get a meaningful number of people in order to effect change using the God given power of government. If 75% of fellow citizens want abortion legal in some cases and at certain times but 75% also do not want it used as birth control after a certain time why in the world would you not try to at least save the babies that are possible to save.

Look back through this thread and you will see that not only are you taking a purist stance where I might at least respect your position, but you go on and attack those who at least want to try to do something concrete that will save some lives.
Unless you can make some argument that getting involved in a compromised political process would do more actual harm than good, then your argument is untenable.

I hope you understand how bad this looks on you. If you simply can't vote this time fine. But these posts show you acting offended that someone would question you - yet all the while you are actively questioning someone's position by falsely claiming that they are somehow helping decide how to kill babies - the very same babies that you are content to let die as long as you can avoid compromise.

I do not believe they are loose ends, but I get your point.

The World will be the World. Abortions have been going on since before the time of Christ. In the 1st century abortions were normal. And Jesus did not mention them, much less try to stop the practice by changing the government.

I do not believe Christians can make the World less an enemy of God, such less make the World stop doing evil.

By saying "decide how to kill babies", perhaps "when to kill babies" would have been more accurate.

The GOP supports abortion as a choice. But it does oppose abortion during the third trimester of pregnancy.

I am not pleased that the World is evil (that the World supports abortion as a choice, that the World exploits people, that the World is immoral, etc.).

But I am a Christian and I know this os how things will be because God has already told us so. I know that I cannot make these forces of evil good.

I am content that our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with these spiritual forces and powers that so many professing Christians support. I am content because God commanded me to be content, to obey Him and trust that He has us in His hands.



Christians have many choices. Christians can support evil, and they can refuse to support evil.

Christians who choose to support evil have choices in which evil to support. They can support requiring hospitals to make abortion avaliable or they can support abortion as a choice. In the end neither side affects the number of abortions in the US.


But yes, I have learned to be content and trust God. It is not up to me to change the World but it is up to me to obey God and trust that He is sovereign.

The reason I can be content and obey God is that I know He is in control, He is sovereign. I do not have to support one evil to fight another. I don't have to disobey God in order to change the World.

 

[DaveXR650]

Christians have many choices. Christians can support evil, and they can refuse to support evil.

Christians who choose to support evil have choices in which evil to support. They can support requiring hospitals to make abortion avaliable or they can support abortion as a choice. In the end neither side affects the number of abortions in the US.

Christians have the opportunity to protect the rights of Catholic hospitals to not offer abortions. They can keep medical students from having to participate and learn abortion techniques during their training. The can protect people who feel they should protest from suffering excessive penalties for doing so that far exceed the penalties for BLM or Antifa. They can support the states that are willing and able to pass heartbeat laws and support pro life counseling clinics. To take all that and describe it as "Christians who choose to support evil have choices in which evil to support" is I think outrageous.

If you would just leave it as you can't vote for this guy or this party I would be fine with that, even though I disagree. But to attack those who are going to participate because that is the system we find ourselves under is simply wrong headed. The removal of Roe vs Wade exposed the hypocrisy of many Republicans for sure. And it is quite possible that now that it's up to a vote the pro life cause is going to get demolished this election. I fully understand that many in the Republican party despise Christians and personally have no convictions about anything. But that is the system we live under and even a brute beast can understand when he wins because of pro-life Christian support, although they may need to be reminded.

 

[JonC]

Christians have the opportunity to protect the rights of Catholic hospitals to not offer abortions. They can keep medical students from having to participate and learn abortion techniques during their training. The can protect people who feel they should protest from suffering excessive penalties for doing so that far exceed the penalties for BLM or Antifa. They can support the states that are willing and able to pass heartbeat laws and support pro life counseling clinics. To take all that and describe it as "Christians who choose to support evil have choices in which evil to support" is I think outrageous.

If you would just leave it as you can't vote for this guy or this party I would be fine with that, even though I disagree. But to attack those who are going to participate because that is the system we find ourselves under is simply wrong headed. The removal of Roe vs Wade exposed the hypocrisy of many Republicans for sure. And it is quite possible that now that it's up to a vote the pro life cause is going to get demolished this election. I fully understand that many in the Republican party despise Christians and personally have no convictions about anything. But that is the system we live under and even a brute beast can understand when he wins because of pro-life Christian support, although they may need to be reminded.

Christians have an opportunity to let the people of each state decide whether to protect Catholic hospitals. I agree.

BUT that decision comes at a cost. To extend the possibility that Catholic hospitals will be protected Chriatians will have to support abortion as a choice.

And do you know what would be accomplished in terms of aborted babies? Nothing. Pro-abortion states will continue to provide abortions, continue to provide travel from pro-life states, and even abortion will continue within those states (just without the safeguard of medical facilities). Nothing will change in terms of abortion because nothing will have changed in a meaningful way.

The only thing that changes is the Christian who holds pro-life beliefs becomes pro-choice in their support.

Christians have to stop turning to the World to change the World. Christians need to turn to God in obedience to change individuals trusting that God is truely sovereign.

God may use disobedience, but God never blesses disobedience.

 

[JonC]

@DaveXR650

I believe those who support a thing are just as involved as those who do a thing.

If I give herion to a drug user I am just as involved (perhaps more so) in drugs as the user. If I support a robbery by breaking the glass for my gang but don't enter the jewelry store I am still guilty.

Take your support as participation.

Would you murder 10 children to save 15 children (a net profit of 5 lives saved)?

The GOP has made this compromise (not to save children but to gain political power).

The issue is philosophical.

If you hold to utilitarianism then you view the end result, not the act of murdering children, as wrong. So you believe you are justified in murdering 10 children because you merely view this as saving 15 children.

BUT if you hold to moral philosophy then you believe that murdering children itself is wrong, regardless of the result.

Christians should do good, never support evil, trusting in God - that God is sovereign, in control of the outcome.

 

[DaveXR650]

If I give herion to a drug user I am just as involved (perhaps more so) in drugs as the user. If I support a robbery by breaking the glass for my gang but don't enter the jewelry store I am still guilty.

That is faulty logic. Both of those examples require you to actually be in favor and give assistance to the precise thing we are against. What you are advocating would be more like if I want to put together a massive task force to fight armed robbery you would be saying that by default it means that I am in favor of night time burglary because I don't also have a task force on that. You do what you can. If a and b are wrong and currently occurring you do not help evil if you can stop a but not b. You do not suddenly become responsible for the fact that b, which you did not start, is still occurring.

I know you won't be convinced. But someone else may read this and I don't want them to fall for such reasoning.

 

[JonC]

That is faulty logic. Both of those examples require you to actually be in favor and give assistance to the precise thing we are against. What you are advocating would be more like if I want to put together a massive task force to fight armed robbery you would be saying that by default it means that I am in favor of night time burglary because I don't also have a task force on that. You do what you can. If a and b are wrong and currently occurring you do not help evil if you can stop a but not b. You do not suddenly become responsible for the fact that b, which you did not start, is still occurring.

I know you won't be convinced. But someone else may read this and I don't want them to fall for such reasoning.

It is not faulty logic.

My logic is that if you support the right of people to decide whether to kill children because you are opposed to requiring facilities to offer child killing services then you are guilty of supporting the right of people to decide whether to kill children. The reason you support that evil is that you do not want facilities to be required to offer infanticide. But your reason does not negate your support.


One does not have to be in favor of a platform that vows to keep abortion as a choice in order to support that position.

And supporting a Presidential candidate is supporting that candidate for election to the office in order to do what he has said he would do.

I want others who read this to be crystal clear.

The Germans who supported Hitler knowing full well his agenda are guilty of supporting evil. God used that evil, but that does not excuse those who supported it.

A Christian who supports a candidate knowing full well what that candidate says he or she will do is supporting what that candidate says he or she will do.


Republicans have no problem accusing Democrats of supporting evil, but when they do the same they are blind to the log in their own eye.

 

[JonC]

My caution to Christians:

Scripture tells us that our decisions belong to us. They are ours. BUT God controls the outcome. The future is His.

Carefully and prayerfully decide who it is you support with your voice. Examine very carefully the platform to which you are going to lend your voice.

If you have no problem supporting abortion as choice then perhaps a GOP candidate will work for you.

If you have no problem supporting requiring hospitals to make abortion avaliable then perhaps a DNC candidate will work for you.

If, however, you are reluctant to support abortion at all then neither candidate will work for you.

We will be held accountable for our "deeds and voice". So please choose carefully and prayerfully.

 

[DaveXR650]

Your argument is completely incoherent. And you have not been able to refute my simple logic problem in the post above. If "a" and "b" are both occurring, and both wrong, attempting to do something to stop "a" which might be possible does not make you guilty of supporting "b", even though you are not stopping that at the same time. This goes back to the simple college level logic problems. If you have 2 men stranded on a mountain and you show up with only enough equipment to get one before a fatal blizzard hits you are not guilty of killing the one you can't help because you only help one climber. This is self explanatory to anyone who thinks this through.

The Germans who supported Hitler knowing full well his agenda are guilty of supporting evil. God used that evil, but that does not excuse those who supported it.

You keep doing this. This is a cheap way to try to play on our deeply held animosity toward Hitler by falsely making some connection that simply isn't there. You did it here too:

Would you murder 10 children to save 15 children (a net profit of 5 lives saved)?

That is a false analogy and you know it. The real statement would be "If 25 children are going to be murdered, and you might be able to save 15 by some compromise, would you do so. Of course you would, just like you might release a terrorist in exchange for innocent hostages because that is all you could do at the time. A proper analogy with Hitler might be where you gladly accepted help from the Stalinists to defeat Hitler because he had to be stopped, even though you eventually would have to deal with them too.