The Social Gospel?

[JonC]

Your argument is completely incoherent. And you have not been able to refute my simple logic problem in the post above. If "a" and "b" are both occurring, and both wrong, attempting to do something to stop "a" which might be possible does not make you guilty of supporting "b", even though you are not stopping that at the same time. This goes back to the simple college level logic problems. If you have 2 men stranded on a mountain and you show up with only enough equipment to get one before a fatal blizzard hits you are not guilty of killing the one you can't help because you only help one climber. This is self explanatory to anyone who thinks this through.

You keep doing this. This is a cheap way to try to play on our deeply held animosity toward Hitler by falsely making some connection that simply isn't there. You did it here too:

That is a false analogy and you know it. The real statement would be "If 25 children are going to be murdered, and you might be able to save 15 by some compromise, would you do so. Of course you would, just like you might release a terrorist in exchange for innocent hostages because that is all you could do at the time. A proper analogy with Hitler might be where you gladly accepted help from the Stalinists to defeat Hitler because he had to be stopped, even though you eventually would have to deal with them too.

Your logic is flawed.

If A and B are occurring and you support A to stop B then you are supporting A.

The reason you are supporting A does not negate your support for A.

The problem comes in when A and B are both evil. Then you are actively supporting one evil to fight another that you believe a greater evil.

An example that would work with Stalin is of you supported putting Stalin in power in order to defeat Hitler.

God uses disobedience but God never blesses the disobedient.


You choose to support a pro-choice agenda in order to fight against another pro-chouce agenda (I assume your actual belief is pro-life, but there is a difference between belief and action).

If your candidate is elected then you share the guilt for abortions performed under the abortion as choice platform because you contributed to that platform with your support.

 

[DaveXR650]

If A and B are occurring and you support A to stop B then you are supporting A.

Jon. A and B are both currently occurring. By supporting one party you can stop A from occurring. You don't cause anything that is not already occurring. It was already occurring, and if the other party wins B as well as A will continue to be supported, as well as entrenched, and expanded into C, D, and possibly E. This should not be difficult.

If you have to sit this one out I understand if the reason is that you just can't stand Trump. But I would just ask you to consider that we are living in a specific time and under a form of government that God has put us under and we should use the tools available to us. There are certain things we can't do as Christians but we can do other things. Don't tie your own hands with impossible ethical demands that God does not hold you to. Between now and the election read some Wilberforce and some Bonhoeffer. I hope you find some answers.

 

[JonC]

Jon. A and B are both currently occurring. By supporting one party you can stop A from occurring.

Abortion is occurring. Currently only the GOP version.

Abortion has existed for over two millennia. Abortion existed during Jesus' earthly ministry.

And it will continue. The World is evil.

The thing to consider is whether or not we want to support abortion.

Your answer is "yes", to support the current abortion policy in the US because it already exists.

My answer is "no". I get that the World is evil and will continue to be evil until it passes away. I have no need to become "of the World" to support one evil in order to try and make the World less evil.

Bottom line is you choose a pro-choice position in order to prevent all states from having to make abortion avaliable.

 

[DaveXR650]

Abortion is occurring. Currently only the GOP version.

You might want to explain that with the Democrats in control for the last 3 and a half years and those of us in Ohio having our clocks cleaned in the last election with a 57% majority overturning our Republican heartbeat bill and replacing it with a state constitutional amendment making abortion a right. No, it's not the GOP version. It is the result of some GOP folks who are pro abortion, most Democrats, and of people like you with weak reasoning who don't get involved.
Having been a member of Right to Life and supporting pro life candidates since I've been old enough to vote can you see how offensive it is to be told by someone who just stays out something like this:

Bottom line is you choose a pro-choice position in order to prevent all states from having to make abortion avaliable.

That is the weirdest logic I have ever seen.

 

[JonC]

You might want to explain that with the Democrats in control for the last 3 and a half years and those of us in Ohio having our clocks cleaned in the last election with a 57% majority overturning our Republican heartbeat bill and replacing it with a state constitutional amendment making abortion a right. No, it's not the GOP version. It is the result of some GOP folks who are pro abortion, most Democrats, and of people like you with weak reasoning who don't get involved.
Having been a member of Right to Life and supporting pro life candidates since I've been old enough to vote can you see how offensive it is to be told by someone who just stays out something like this:

That is the weirdest logic I have ever seen.

Same as when the GOP controlled the branches and had placed the majority of the SCOTUS seats, without changing anything significant.

It is not weird logic.

AND you are wrong. I have voted in every election I could until now.

I do not deny that you hold pro-life beliefs. I also accept that you have supported pro-life people and organizations.

BUT that does not negate the fact that if you vote for a GOP presidential candidate in 2024 you are supporting abortion as a choice.


I do not care if you find it offensive. The truth is that this election you are voting pro-choice (literally....you are supporting keeping abortion as a choice for citizens to make).


We have reached the point in our nation where Christians are going to have to decide exactly which master they will serve.

You seem to have decided to take a pro-choice position when it comes to supporting a candidate for President. You also support same sex marriage and the normalization of homosexuality with that support.


Each of us will have to decide what compromises to make, if any.

Any Christian who decides to support a worldly power to bring about social changes will have to compromise their faith.

You just have to decide on the price to be paid for your support. Right now it is only your pro-life position or your stand against sexual immorality. But what else will it be in the future?

20 years ago Christians wouldn't have put up with supporting a candidate that vowed to keep abortion a choice, uphold same sex marriage, or normalize homosexuality.

A candidate wouldn't have even asked for the Christian support with Trump's platform.

But Christians have allowed compromise after compromise to chip away at their stand. Now most professing Christians accept same sex marriage and abortion in most cases.

That is the result of compromised believers, wanting to take control from God and support evil.

Now you are pro-life supporting a pro-choice platform.

That is how far we have fallen. And it is not the fault of the World at all. The World is evil. It is the fault of too many Christians making compromises, ceasing to be "salt and light" but becoming lukewarm at best.

 

[DaveXR650]

Same as when the GOP controlled the branches and had placed the majority of the SCOTUS seats, without changing anything significant.

That's true. And believe me I noticed that. But you elect the best people you can and do the best you can. Did you not say you usually vote? I assume you voted pro life - which means you have voted since the above occurred, which makes you a compromiser too. Which is fine if you did the best you could. It's impossible to be totally consistent.

You seem to have decided to take a pro-choice position when it comes to supporting a candidate for President. You also support same sex marriage and the normalization of homosexuality with that support.

There again. First you complained that the GOP missed chances to do something when they had the chance. Which is true. But Trump, say what you want about him said he would put up pro life justices and he gets credit for getting rid of the 50 year abomination of Row v. Wade. That's historical fact.

A candidate wouldn't have even asked for the Christian support with Trump's platform.

Jon. I live in Ohio. We put up some strong pro life legislation and then got held up in court and then we got demolished in an election. I am afraid that this is going to be a wipeout this time because of the abortion issue. If the Dems win you have no chance in our lifetime to do anything about abortion. We need all hands on deck. All the people in all the pro life groups are taking the same position I am. I'm sorry this isn't 20 years ago.

 

[JonC]

That's true. And believe me I noticed that. But you elect the best people you can and do the best you can. Did you not say you usually vote? I assume you voted pro life - which means you have voted since the above occurred, which makes you a compromiser too. Which is fine if you did the best you could. It's impossible to be totally consistent.

There again. First you complained that the GOP missed chances to do something when they had the chance. Which is true. But Trump, say what you want about him said he would put up pro life justices and he gets credit for getting rid of the 50 year abomination of Row v. Wade. That's historical fact.

Jon. I live in Ohio. We put up some strong pro life legislation and then got held up in court and then we got demolished in an election. I am afraid that this is going to be a wipeout this time because of the abortion issue. If the Dems win you have no chance in our lifetime to do anything about abortion. We need all hands on deck. All the people in all the pro life groups are taking the same position I am. I'm sorry this isn't 20 years ago.

@DaveXR650 ,

You still have a problem.

You have one candidate who has vowed to keep abortion a choice for citizens to decide, who affirms same sex marriage, and who not only normalizes homosexuality but also reaches out to that community voting to support them.

You have another candidate who wants to require hospitals to make abortion avaliable, who is more progressive towards transgender issues.

Yes, it is not 20 years ago. 20 years ago you would never have even entertained supporting either candidate.

What changed? Both parties moved more to the left. Both parties embraced more and more evil at an alarming rate.

Your problem is that you are moving right along with the trend. You, although you hold pro-life beliefs, are actively supporting a pro-choice platform in order to fight another pro-choice platform.

The water started off lukewarm, slowly heated up, and you didn't realize it had become deadly as you have become accustomed to the environment.


The Christian has options other than supporting one evil to combat another. And the options we have actually prevent abortion - something neither party can do. It has the ability to rescue out of homosexuality, something neither party can do.

 

[JonC]

This is why I say that the GOP is more dangerous to Christians than the DNC. The DNC is obviously demonic- it wears its identity as a wolf with pride. The GOP, however, is a power of darkness that wears the clothing of a sheep.

At one time it was the norm that Christians rejected any agenda that protected the "right" to abortion. Then it became tolerable to many. Then a minority of believers accepted abortion. Now the majority of Christians believe abortion is fine in most cases, and most of those who remain pro-life accept abortion if it strengthens the GOP.

At one time Christians rejected homosexuality. Then a minority viewed it as an alternate but acceptable lifestyle. Now the majority of Christians accept homosexuality, even within its congregations.

Not long ago Christians were fairly united in rejecting Same Sex Marriage. Then it became an issue of the word "marriage" as opposed to "civil union". Now the majority of Christians accept Same Sex Marriage.

Politics is a vehicle Satan has used to draw away many Christians from living faithful, holy lives. Christians today look more like Republicans than than Christ. They are indistinguishable from non-Christian Republicans. They are no longer "salt and light" but have instead become "of the world" through progressively compromising with the World in an attempt to change the World.

 

[DaveXR650]

This is why I say that the GOP is more dangerous to Christians than the DNC. The DNC is obviously demonic- it wears its identity as a wolf with pride. The GOP, however, is a power of darkness that wears the clothing of a sheep.

The GOP is a mix of serious idealogues, opportunists, hacks looking for an easy career, and people who think they can do some good. The societal drift you describe of course reflects the parties, and the parties try to influence the culture. I forget where I read this but someone once said "There go my people, excuse me, I must go and lead them".

Our system of government seeks to keep a maximum number of people satisfied enough to be willing to live in peace together. The party platforms will drift with the culture. I admit that it is true that our constitution and system of rights depends upon a level of virtue and Christian culture that we probably no longer have in sufficient amounts to work. We have as a country moved into a state where we can expect to pay for our folly by natural cause and effect and by God's judgement.

What I see in your statement above is the effect of this modern mindset some Christian groups have. There is a desire to inordinately heap maximum guilt on anything we do and think that will somehow please God. So you end up with bizarre statements like the above where through some twisted logic a party that tries to do what it can to right a wrong is somehow worse that a party who proudly wears t-shirts with their abortion date on it. This is what powers the White guilt and the paralyzed docile Christian who can't do anything good because he is so wretched. Virtue is only shown by how much you condemn yourself.

 

[JonC]

The GOP is a mix of serious idealogues, opportunists, hacks looking for an easy career, and people who think they can do some good. The societal drift you describe of course reflects the parties, and the parties try to influence the culture. I forget where I read this but someone once said "There go my people, excuse me, I must go and lead them".

Our system of government seeks to keep a maximum number of people satisfied enough to be willing to live in peace together. The party platforms will drift with the culture. I admit that it is true that our constitution and system of rights depends upon a level of virtue and Christian culture that we probably no longer have in sufficient amounts to work. We have as a country moved into a state where we can expect to pay for our folly by natural cause and effect and by God's judgement.

What I see in your statement above is the effect of this modern mindset some Christian groups have. There is a desire to inordinately heap maximum guilt on anything we do and think that will somehow please God. So you end up with bizarre statements like the above where through some twisted logic a party that tries to do what it can to right a wrong is somehow worse that a party who proudly wears t-shirts with their abortion date on it. This is what powers the White guilt and the paralyzed docile Christian who can't do anything good because he is so wretched. Virtue is only shown by how much you condemn yourself.

I agree that both political parties are a mix 9f ideologies. There are plenty of pro-life Democrats.

As a Christian I do not identify by race (I do not identify with the flesh, but belong to a "chosen race, a priesthood of believers"). So I don't identify with that "white guilt" issue.

I believe the World is fallen and at odds with God. It is wicked and it's wickedness will not end in this lifetime.

I do not see any advantage with identifying with the World by becoming a part of either party within this "power of darkness".

Instead I believe that we (Christians) are a people called out of the world to be a holy people.


I understand that you disagree with me, but you cannot deny at least that those who abstain from participating in worldly political powers because of their Christianity appear to the World as Christian. You, just from this thread, apoear as any other Republican regardless of any religious affiliation.


Your arguments are exactly the arguments pagan Romans used to accuse the early church for their refusal to hold public office, participate in politics, and serve in the military.

This is not a new issue.

 

[DaveXR650]

I understand that you disagree with me, but you cannot deny at least that those who abstain from participating in worldly political powers because of their Christianity appear to the World as Christian. You, just from this thread, apoear as any other Republican regardless of any religious affiliation.

Now notice. You went ahead, as you tend to do, and told me how I appear to the world. Now let me tell you how you appear. You appear at best as quaint and irrelevant, like the Amish. At worse you look like a hypocrite who won't get involved but just sits in judgement of what is going on. You look like the person who says they don't believe in self defense but calls the police who are expected to arrive fully armed, when trouble occurs. And you look like the Amish who won't participate in the modern messy things like electricity and transportation, living a clean, pure life - until they get sick, then it's off to the modern hospital where everything better be state of the art. That's what you look like.

 

[JonC]

Now notice. You went ahead, as you tend to do, and told me how I appear to the world.

No, I didn't.

I said based on this thread you appear as any other Republican. You added "to the World", which hints that you may know supporting a pro-choice, pro-sane sex marriage platform that unites all religions and sexual orientations under its cause may in fact be wrong.

I also never claimed to avoid modern things. Obviously I am using the internet now. I drive. I work at a nuclear site. I have lights and air conditioning. I own a boat.

But using modern things and going to the doctor is not the same as supporting evil.

Jesus never said that the modern sandals of His time were evil.

He said that the World is evil, will continue to be evil, and God commanded us not to become involved with these powers that have become so important to you.


And you are, obviousky, wrong that I will not get involved. That false accusation (already disproven) is merely an emotional tantrum.

Christians SHOULD be involved. But we should do kindgom work in kingdom ways, not by supporting evil to fight what we see as a bigger evil. When Chriatians do that they tend to stop seeing the evil they support as evil at all (they become tasteless salt, lukewarm water).

Rather than becoming of the World by supporting one element of the "powers of darkness" and supporting evil why don't you simply fight the good fight from within the Body of Christ?

Why unite with a secular political party, one that will never heal the problems of the World, one that has no desire to end abortion, when you have Christ?

You are supporting a pro-choice, pro- same sex marriage position. Do you seriously not understand how this is damning to your witness, to your character, and hypocritical to your faith?

What are you really trying to accomplish? It is not a fight against evil (the same evils exist in the GOP).

Is it wealth (economic issues) that has persuaded you to compromise? Is it fear (crime, immigration) that is the cause of your compromise?

Is it the concerns of the World that made you look back?

 

[JonC]

@DaveXR650

You are not the first person to accuse Christians who abstain from secular politics as doing nothing.

Many 1st century Jews accused Jesus of the same. Others feared that was what He was going to do. His answer was that His kingdom is not of this World. He never addressed the political or socioeconomic issues of the 1st century.

A bit later Paul addressed this same issue, explaining the obvious (that we do not judge those without, but those within).

And pagans in Rome accused Christians of the same thing. Just as you believe Jesus and the Disciples did nothing for not becoming political, these pagans offered your accusations against Christians of their day (Christians abstained from politics until the advent of the Catholic Church).

The early church gave the same defence to those pagans as I am giving you. We do all of that work, but instead of doing so within the powers of evil we do them within the Body of Christ.

You accused me (and by virtue of my position) Jesus, His Disciples, and the first 3 centuries of Christianity of doing nothing. That is fine. I'm in good company.

Unlike you I have not compromised my faith (I do not support abortion as choice, same sex marriage, the normalization of homosexuality, or any "force of evil" to try to make the World a better place to live. That is not my calling. That is not the reason I was saved.

I was saved to do good works, not support the evil you believe necessary to accomplish a political agenda.

 

[JonC]

What I see in your statement above is the effect of this modern mindset some Christian groups have. There is a desire to inordinately heap maximum guilt on anything we do and think that will somehow please God.

You are wrong. I am not helping guilt on anybody.

I am stating the obvious.

You believe abortion is wrong, same sex marriage is wrong, and homosexuality is wrong.

But you support abortion as choice, same sex marriage, and the normalization of homosexuality for political gain.

I do not understand why.

As far as abortion goes, you will not decrease abortions by supporting the GOP platform. All you might accomplish is spreading out the availability of legal abortion.

As far as same sex marriage and homosexuality goes, you certainly will not be addressing the issue by uniting with conservative homosexual Republicans in your support.


You are not standing for anything with your support of evil. You are standing against a different political party within the same power of darkness. Different party, same master.

 

[DaveXR650]

I said based on this thread you appear as any other Republican. You added "to the World",

I didn't add anything. I responded to your statement:

I do not see any advantage with identifying with the World by becoming a part of either party within this "power of darkness".

And you are, obviousky, wrong that I will not get involved. That false accusation (already disproven) is merely an emotional tantrum.

Stop this Jon. Never once on this thread have I gone anywhere with this beyond the discussion about voting in this upcoming election. It is you who keeps bringing in all this bizarre talk about how a simple vote becomes some kind of an alliance with darkness. My accusation is regarding voting, which is the subject, and which you have stated you are not going to do this time around. The emotional tantrum involves your tendency, when you have nothing else to argue, to try to work toward some kind of perceived insult or "false accusation" so you can put on your moderator hat. If you're out of ammo close the thread.

You are not standing for anything with your support of evil. You are standing against a different political party within the same power of darkness. Different party, same master.

Talk about a false accusation. You have done this several times now, and all I am talking about is the fact that I perceive that a vote for the GOP this time, in my opinion, will reduce the number of abortions performed in the next few years. You say it won't but never can say why. I say it will, and tell why. I try to explain with the simple illustration using "a" and "b", which you never answer because you can't refute it. Your only reply is to imply that a simple vote puts me in league with the powers of darkness.

I have said several times now, if you want to sit this one out, I fully understand. Just stop the weird accusations and leaps of logic. I'm not sitting this one out and I have explained why. I am done with you on this as this is almost at 300 replies and really nothing new is being presented.

 

[JonC]

I didn't add anything. I responded to your statement:


Stop this Jon. Never once on this thread have I gone anywhere with this beyond the discussion about voting in this upcoming election. It is you who keeps bringing in all this bizarre talk about how a simple vote becomes some kind of an alliance with darkness. My accusation is regarding voting, which is the subject, and which you have stated you are not going to do this time around. The emotional tantrum involves your tendency, when you have nothing else to argue, to try to work toward some kind of perceived insult or "false accusation" so you can put on your moderator hat. If you're out of ammo close the thread.

Talk about a false accusation. You have done this several times now, and all I am talking about is the fact that I perceive that a vote for the GOP this time, in my opinion, will reduce the number of abortions performed in the next few years. You say it won't but never can say why. I say it will, and tell why. I try to explain with the simple illustration using "a" and "b", which you never answer because you can't refute it. Your only reply is to imply that a simple vote puts me in league with the powers of darkness.

I have said several times now, if you want to sit this one out, I fully understand. Just stop the weird accusations and leaps of logic. I'm not sitting this one out and I have explained why. I am done with you on this as this is almost at 300 replies and really nothing new is being presented.

It is very simple.

Trump had vowed to keep abortion as choice and not ban abortion. The GOP affirms Sane Sex Marriage and the normalization of homosexuality.

Are you going to use your vote this election to support the GOP candidate for tge ifgice of POTUS?

If so, then you are supporting Trump to fo the things he says he will do if elected.


I agree that you believe supporting abortion as choice now will reduce the number of abortions being performed later.

I question your logic. One cannot legislative morality. Abortions occur regardless of laws. And of the 5 to 6 states that are a majority pro-life, they are close to pro-death majority states. Nothing will change.

But the main problem is that you believe the only thing you can do to combat abortion in the future is to support abortion as choice in the present.


I believe that God is sovereign. This is why I find the idea of supporting one evil to hope to influence another so absurdly wicked. It demonstrates a lack of faith that God is in control.


And it damages our churches. Your willingness to support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality for a political gain is a reflection of the compromises Christians have made in general as they cease being salt and light.

 

[Silverhair]

@JonC I asked you if you supported DEI through your work, shopping etc and you replied it has nothing to do with Homosexuality.

"For example, in June 2020, the Supreme Court ruled in a landmark decision that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or transgender status. The court determined that any type of discrimination against an employee for their sexual preferences or transgender status discriminates against an employee’s sex, and therefore is prohibited by Title VII. More recently, new legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sex, sexual orientation and gender identity, called the Equality Act, will soon be voted on within the Senate, and if it passes, will make its way to President Joe Biden’s desk."

So you continue to rile against those that would cast as vote as they have compromised their faith and yet you do the same thing in your everyday life. You are not consistent.

 

[JonC]

@JonC I asked you if you supported DEI through your work, shopping etc and you replied it has nothing to do with Homosexuality.

"For example, in June 2020, the Supreme Court ruled in a landmark decision that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or transgender status. The court determined that any type of discrimination against an employee for their sexual preferences or transgender status discriminates against an employee’s sex, and therefore is prohibited by Title VII. More recently, new legislation prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sex, sexual orientation and gender identity, called the Equality Act, will soon be voted on within the Senate, and if it passes, will make its way to President Joe Biden’s desk."

So you continue to rile against those that would cast as vote as they have compromised their faith and yet you do the same thing in your everyday life. You are not consistent.

DEI has to do with diversity hires in the secular world.

I do not want homosexuals to be deprived of a way to live.

But no, I do not support a power thar pushes DEI. The reason is I do not support these powers at all.

Does my work support DEI? No. Fortunately it is not a very large field do they seek trained people when they hhire. Hiring is typically in 25 year increments (to replace people retiring).

Do I go to stores that support DEI? I don't know. I really do not care. I would oppose Chriatians who sought to oppress people also. That is not our calling.

The problem with the GOP is the professing believer is actively giving their support in the hopes a platform will be enacted. They are actively supporting abortion as choice, the normalization of homosexuality, and same sex marriage. They are also actively supporting an ungodly person to the office, but that is a given as we are talking about the secular.


I am sure that there areas where I compromise my faith. I never denied that.

Your argument that I should support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality because I fall short is logical fallacy.

You are pro-choice, pro homosexuality, in your support. I am not. That does not mean I would work to oppress immoral people.

I will work to oppose evil in our churches, to include your pro-choice, pro homosexuality support. The reason is this is the arena we are commanded to guard, not the World.

 

[JonC]

Bottom line is Christians should be in but not of the World.

We do interact with the World. We purchase things, have jobs, etc. and are in this way a part of the economy.

But Christians do not join the World to attempt to solve the problems of the World. The World IS an enemy of God. We do not actively support evil, even if it is for political gain.

The majority of Christians support abortion in most cases, same sex marriage, and the normalization of homosexuality.

Their politics - the things that they support - has influenced their belief. We, as Christians, have to a great extent united with the World and have become lukewarm if alive at all.

 

[Silverhair]

DEI has to do with diversity hires in the secular world.

I do not want homosexuals to be deprived of a way to live.

But no, I do not support a power thar pushes DEI. The reason is I do not support these powers at all.

Does my work support DEI? No. Fortunately it is not a very large field do they seek trained people when they hhire. Hiring is typically in 25 year increments (to replace people retiring).

Do I go to stores that support DEI? I don't know. I really do not care. I would oppose Chriatians who sought to oppress people also. That is not our calling.

The problem with the GOP is the professing believer is actively giving their support in the hopes a platform will be enacted. They are actively supporting abortion as choice, the normalization of homosexuality, and same sex marriage. They are also actively supporting an ungodly person to the office, but that is a given as we are talking about the secular.


I am sure that there areas where I compromise my faith. I never denied that.

Your argument that I should support abortion as choice and the normalization of homosexuality because I fall short is logical fallacy.

You are pro-choice, pro homosexuality, in your support. I am not. That does not mean I would work to oppress immoral people.

I will work to oppose evil in our churches, to include your pro-choice, pro homosexuality support. The reason is this is the arena we are commanded to guard, not the World.

I am amazed that you are so complacent about how you disrespect all those fellow Christians that have in the past and now strive to further the kingdom. You are will to thrown Wilberforce and Bonhoeffer plus how many others under the bus as they did and do not think as you do. Rather judgemental of you Jon.