The Son of God Issue !

[savedbymercy]

The issue of the Only Begotten Son. In apostate religion there is a very deceptive false teaching in regards to the Person of the Son of God, which is called the Eternal Generation of the Son of God. This apostate teaching states that the Deity of the Son of God, that which constitutes Him Very God of Very God, that it is a derivative Deity, of a secondary constitution, and not Self Existent and Independent as that of the Father and the Spirit. One of the leading components for this false teaching is the Nicene creed, note what it says here:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made;

Notice carefully how it states that the Only Begotten of the Father, begotten of the Father [ Derived] Very God begotten [derived] not made ! Folks thats a contradiction for both begotten and Made denote a dependent existence, which is not fitting for God !

Such a teaching as this is Blasphemous, a subtle attack on the Deity of Jesus Christ, that of the Logos of God, which scripture teaches was God Jn 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We dare not think that Deity was of any producing higher than itself, or a product of some kind of generation.

The scripture however does inform us of a Sonship of Christ that is Eternally begotten or Generated, but this is related to Him Being the Head and Surety Life of His Body the Church Rev 3:14


14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

But this being of His is in Addition to and Joined to His Self Existing Deity as the Logos of God ! This must be understood to avoid the present blasphemy of the Nicene Creed teaching !

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There are two things you really need to make clear which isn't clear in your post.

1) What do you think Eternal Generation means in regard to Jesus as the Son. Or what do you think was said at Nicea about Jesus?

2) What are you saying about Jesus? Do you believe he was created? Do you believe he is another deity? Do you believe he was only generated in time? What are you trying to get at?

 

[The Biblicist]

There are two things you really need to make clear which isn't clear in your post.

1) What do you think Eternal Generation means in regard to Jesus as the Son. Or what do you think was said at Nicea about Jesus?

2) What are you saying about Jesus? Do you believe he was created? Do you believe he is another deity? Do you believe he was only generated in time? What are you trying to get at?

Eternal generation

The eternal generation of the Son is defined as "an eternal personal act of the Father, wherein, by necessity of nature, not by choice of will, He generates the person (not the essence) of the Son, by communicating to Him the whole indivisible substance of the Godhead, without division, alienation, or change, so that the Son is the express image of His Father's person, and eternally continues, not from the Father, but in the Father, and the Father in the Son.


"Eternally begotten" compared to "born of"

This doctrine suggests that Jesus, the Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin, and declared to be the Son of God when raised up by the Spirit of God, manifests in human and therefore derivative terms an eternal and unchanging mystery concerning the relationship between the Father and the Son.



Nicene Creed

"I believe...in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."



Augustine

To speak of the "begottenness" or "generation" of the Son implies an analogy to God in human nature. When God speaks of himself as Father and Son, it suggests a social likeness to himself in man, who is made in God's image. Similarly, when he speaks of Himself as God and Word of God, it suggests likeness to God in man's modes of self-awareness, a "psychological analogy". When meditating on distinctions between the persons in the Trinity, for example, Augustine discovered something comparable (analogous) in the distinct modes of his own intellect, heart, and will. Similarly, there is a creaturely trinity of wisdom, knowledge of wisdom, and delight in that knowledge, that can be shown to be analogous to God:

 

[savedbymercy]

ts

What do you think Eternal Generation means in regard to Jesus as the Son.

I already said in the post. Do you know what the nicene creed states, I just posted it ?

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

He generates the person (not the essence) of the Son, by communicating to Him the whole indivisible substance of the Godhead,

When you say the person of the Son is generated, do you mean His God Head ? To communicate to Him His Godhead is stating that He did not have His Own Self Existing Unbegotten Godhead as the Father did. If that is what you are saying then that is Blasphemy, For Christ in His Absolute Godhead did not need it to communicated to Him no more than the Father or the Spirit did !

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ts



I already said in the post. Do you know what the nicene creed states, I just posted it ?

You posted what is stated but not what you think it means. All Biblicist did was post what is written but as yet no one has explained what they think it means.

Or what you believe about Jesus in regard to his nature.

 

[The Biblicist]

You posted what is stated but not what you think it means. All Biblicist did was post what is written but as yet no one has explained what they think it means.

Or what you believe about Jesus in regard to his nature.

What I posted explains in some detail what that means. However, I merely posted it from nother website.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What I posted explains in some detail what that means. However, I merely posted it from nother website.

That is fine. I don't mind the post. However, I want to be sure that SBM understands what is actually being said rather than interpreting a different meaning as so often happens. Since SBM is clearly indicating that Nicea made a heretical statement of the Nature of Jesus Christ I want to know what that is. From his quotes of scripture I want to know if he believes since Jesus is begotten of the Father, in his mind does he believe that there was a time when Jesus was not? Or that there are multiple gods as in Seve's view? Because what was Orthodox belief about the nature of Jesus was established long ago. And to go against it, therefore, would be heretical. Just by virtue of quoting something doesn't guarantee proper understanding of what that means. Before any meaningful discussion can be had on the nature of Jesus Christ we must have agreement on the meaning of terms.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

BTW. I have to leave so I won't respond right away just because I can't but I'll be back. This should make for an interesting discussion.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is fine. I don't mind the post. However, I want to be sure that SBM understands what is actually being said rather than interpreting a different meaning as so often happens. Since SBM is clearly indicating that Nicea made a heretical statement of the Nature of Jesus Christ I want to know what that is. From his quotes of scripture I want to know if he believes since Jesus is begotten of the Father, in his mind does he believe that there was a time when Jesus was not? Or that there are multiple gods as in Seve's view? Because what was Orthodox belief about the nature of Jesus was established long ago. And to go against it, therefore, would be heretical. Just by virtue of quoting something doesn't guarantee proper understanding of what that means. Before any meaningful discussion can be had on the nature of Jesus Christ we must have agreement on the meaning of terms.

Don't expect too much from SBM. Whenever he is confronted with anything that challenges his position that he can't answer he simply repeats his first assertion over and over.

 

[savedbymercy]

ts

You posted what is stated but not what you think it means

I did, that is what the thread is about, what I think it means !

 

[savedbymercy]

Don't expect too much from SBM. Whenever he is confronted with anything that challenges his position that he can't answer he simply repeats his first assertion over and over.

Post # 5 is waiting on you sir ? Why don't you take that challenge ?

 

[billwald]

The Athanasian Creed accurately defines the relationship between God and Jesus and is binding on all Christians.

 

[billwald]

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made;


IN OTHER WORDS, God cloned Jesus by himself from himself.

 

[Yeshua1]

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made;


IN OTHER WORDS, God cloned Jesus by himself from himself.

Not cloned, as the Son has ALWAYS existed along with the father and the Spirit!

The Sin eternally generated from the father, the Spirit from both of them, but ALL 3 Eternal, never a time when none of them were not existing!

 

[savedbymercy]

Not cloned, as the Son has ALWAYS existed along with the father and the Spirit!

The Sin eternally generated from the father, the Spirit from both of them, but ALL 3 Eternal, never a time when none of them were not existing!

Are you saying that Spirit genrated from the Father and the Son also ?

Thats double blasphemy, God does not generate. The word generate means:


to bring into existence; cause to be; produce.

2.
to create by a vital or natural process.

3.
to create and distribute vitally and profusely: He generates ideas that we all should consider. A good diplomat generates good will.

4.
to reproduce; procreate.

 

[billwald]

There have been thousands of words written to explain the procession of the Son and Holy Spirit from the Father. Here is a good place to start for anyone who cares. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque Most people on BB mostly want to have the last word and don't care if they are right. The topic is all yours.

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you saying that Spirit genrated from the Father and the Son also ?

Thats double blasphemy, God does not generate. The word generate means:


to bring into existence; cause to be; produce.

2.
to create by a vital or natural process.

3.
to create and distribute vitally and profusely: He generates ideas that we all should consider. A good diplomat generates good will.

4.
to reproduce; procreate.

saying the Son was Eternally begotten from the Father, and the Spirit eternally begotten from both Father/Son!

 

[savedbymercy]

saying the Son was Eternally begotten from the Father, and the Spirit eternally begotten from both Father/Son!

Yes, that is Blasphemy, The Father, the Word, and the Spirit are all Self Existing and Unbegotten. You have been influenced by corrupt greek philosophy ! They believed in a begotten god system !

 

[savedbymercy]

The London Baptist Confession of 1644, and 1646


Here is the Confession of 1644 about the Godhead:

That God is4 of himself, that is, neither from another, nor of another, nor by another, nor for another:5 But is a Spirit, who as his being is of himself, so he gives6 being, moving, and preservation to all other things, being in himself eternal, most holy, every way infinite in7 greatness, wisdom, power, justice, goodness, truth, etc. In this God-head, there is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit; being every one of them one and the same God; and therefore not divided, but distinguished one from another by their several properties; the8 Father being from himself, the9 Son of the Father from everlasting, the holy10 Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son.

This Confession is very similar to the apostate confessions that have only the Father being from Himself, and the other Two Beings of the Godhead being derived.

This caused a great controversy and a change took place ,a revsion and it came to light in 1646:

In this divine and infinite Being there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; each having the whole divine Essence, yet the Essence undivided; all infinite without any beginning, therefore but one God; who is not to be divided in nature, and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties.

This latter confession is correct and that which I embrace personally !