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The Son of Man Coming in His Kingdom
- Thread starter Pastor_Bob
- Start date
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus is God and rules over the kingdoms of men. He used the Romans to pour out his wrath on the unbelieving Jews. If you can see God's hand in everything, it makes sense.
Biblical interpretation always starts with the plain normative understanding of the text before it moves to further hermeneutical steps. Would it be that every understanding of the text was so simple as this passage? Some would not taste death and then those some would see the glorified Son at His transfiguration. It is not that some would not taste death and that others would taste death, it is that some would not taste death before seeing the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Two verses later, Jesus was transfigured in all His radiant glory; as He will appear when He reigns in the eternal state. Matthew 17 is a future-present of Christ's glory. Matthew 16:28 was fulfilled to those to whom it was promised. Going further than that in interpretation forces a presupposition that a plain normative rendering of the text does not support.
I see the Romans in a similar light as the Assyrians, the rod of God's anger.(Is 10:5-19).
I guess it hinges on unbeleievers, and whether or not they are a part of or have a part in the Son of Man's kingdom.
They at that time saw jesus as he really is, as the Son of the Living God, God Himself!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
In Matthew 16:21 "began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer... and be killed". I will quote Gill, "the appearance of his kingdom, in greater glory and power, upon his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension to heaven; when the Spirit was poured down in an extraordinary manner, and the Gospel was preached all over the world; was confirmed by signs and wonders, and made effectual to the conversion and salvation of many souls; which many then present lived to see". As Jesus' Disciples that He was Speaking to and other Believing Followers Live and Serve Jesus Within this Glorious Kingdom, in vs. "whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" and be Rewarded Accordingly, as we see in vs 27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Gill: "it seems chiefly to have regard to His Coming, to show His Regal Power and Authority in the destruction of the Jews; when those His enemies that would not He should Reign over them, were ordered to be brought and slain before Him; and this the Apostle John, for one, lived to be a witness of." "The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father", in the previous verse, 27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels", applies to the Ultimate End of Time and Consummation of the Age, involving Judgment and The Promise to His children of Rewards and is STATED as: "the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father". The next vs. is STATED as "the Son of man coming in his kingdom", in 28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Clarification of Interpretation #1: The Ultimate End of Time and Consummation of the Age, involving Judgment and The Promise to His children of Rewards in vs 26: "The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father". Clarification of Interpretation #2: His Coming, to show His Regal Power and Authority in the destruction of the Jews in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION by The Romans vs. : 28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." These verses in Matthew 24 speak of Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans
27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans ) 28 "For wheresoever the carcase is" (The Destroyed Jews), "there will the eagles (Romans) be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans ) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (TEMPORAL CIVIL AUTHORITIES, in GOVERNMENTAL POWER) 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (JESUS SENT PREACHERS PREACHING)". God's Message to us is for PREACHERS to PREACH JESUS, IF YOU ARE CALLED and SENT: "his angels with a great sound of a trumpet", BECAUSE Just as those who LIVED to SEE Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans, JESUS is COMING AGAIN, Ultimately to SEPARATE the SHEEP from the GOATS. (These points fit the rest of The Bible, like a hand in a glove, included those properly Interpreted in Matthew 24, etc.)
The Second Coming of jesus will have Him ruling over the whole earth directly, not indirectly as He is right now!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I Corintians 15:24; "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
When Jesus Returns "he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father".
Jesus said He Came the first time "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD", which is our current "Day of Salvation", when Preachers are to Preach Jesus.
Jesus' Second Coming will be "the day of vengeance of our God;" when He Separates the Sheep from the Goats.
"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;" Isaiah 61:2.
Jesus Will Rule Over The New Heaven and New Earth which Will Be Created upon His Return.
There is NO PURGATORY Over which Jesus Will Rule Lost Souls.
Lost Souls Will Be Cast into Hell.
Jesus Said to Preach the Gospel, NOW.
"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) II Corinthians 6:2
Jesus' Second Coming will be "the day of vengeance of our God;" when He Separates the Sheep from the Goats.
Jesus Will Rule Over The New Heaven and New Earth which Will Be Created upon His Return.
Lost Souls Will Be Cast into Hell.
Jesus Said to Preach the Gospel, NOW.
TODAY.
If you want to say 'Jesus wants a lot of lost souls here on Earth, so He Can Come Preach to them, Personally', when you say "jesus will have Him ruling over the whole earth", with lost souls here on Earth?, I don't see the teaching of PURGATORY, in either Testament, nor anything remotely similar to:
'today is Not the Day of Salvation'
OR 'the day of vengeance of our God;' isn't really coming
OR 'Jesus WILL NOT Separate the Sheep from the Goats'.
Jesus Said to Preach the Gospel, NOW.
TODAY.
At the Second Coming of Jesus Lost Souls Will Be Cast into Hell.
AwareofTheGodhead Wordpress
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Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I came across this article yesterday. It gives an interesting interpretation of this verse.
He, like me, does not think this refers to the Transfiguration which occurred a few days later.
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols10-12/chs594.pdf
He, like me, does not think this refers to the Transfiguration which occurred a few days later.
http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols10-12/chs594.pdf
First of all,the interpretation of some having died before Christ comes into His kingdom being the Transfiguration should be dismissed easily. But for it to refer to Pentecost is still not satisfactory. Christ would not have used the word "some". Only one died.
I also believe it refers to the time of judgment for Israel. That is when there was a change in kingdoms. This is the time that Daniel spoke of; the rock coming down and smashing the kingdoms of the Earth and the beginning of the Kingdom of God, a Kingdom that never ends.
"It shall stand forever", Dan. 2:44
Now here is the problem - for some ; ) :
If the Kingdom came in 70 AD then, according to Scripture, it will never end. Neither, logically, can it be superseded by another future kingdom - even by the same King. That would be arguing for a third coming. It would also disparage Christ's own words that His coming was "with the angels" and "in power".
Christ came in AD 70., in judgment and power.
And for the relief of His saints, setting up the Kingdom they were taught would come in their lifetime.
My usual objection Tom: Why do we still have sin and death in the universe? why undertakers, funerals and cemeteries.
Is sin and death going to go on forever into eternity? When will it it end? How will it end? Will it end?
I changed my vote to "other". The Parousia covered both of the last two choices but we are unable to choose more than one.
Yes, Hank, I remember your objection. Do you remember mine? "Death" in the Bible does not always mean physical death. Consider how Paul connects the "sting of death" with the Isaiah passage.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 16:28 are two different verses.
They contain two different phases, with two different, significant, words:
In Matthew 16: 27; "Glory" and in Matthew 16: 28, "Kingdom".
"Matthew 16: 27; For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
" 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Am I to be despised for suggesting that these two Concepts,
Expressed by our Lord, be given consideration in these Passages,
as to their Identical meaning, or as to their Separate meanings?
Matthew 16: 27; "the glory of his Father with his angels",
&
Matthew 16:28; "the Son of man coming in his kingdom".
They contain two different phases, with two different, significant, words:
In Matthew 16: 27; "Glory" and in Matthew 16: 28, "Kingdom".
"Matthew 16: 27; For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
" 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Am I to be despised for suggesting that these two Concepts,
Expressed by our Lord, be given consideration in these Passages,
as to their Identical meaning, or as to their Separate meanings?
Matthew 16: 27; "the glory of his Father with his angels",
&
Matthew 16:28; "the Son of man coming in his kingdom".
But still, when will the undertakers be put out of business? Seems like that should have happened already.
Will the Spirit of God be grieved by sin for eternity?
Is the Holy Spirit now grieved for the billions who have died in their sins? Is this even the issue?
You have not yet acknowledged that there may be two definitions of "death" in these verses. Or do you think Paul always is referring to physical death? And have you read the cross-reference from Isaiah?
About the physical evil world; I have no idea if it goes on or when it would change. There are some things we are not able to know, some things God chooses not to tell us. For instance there are the words of the Seven Thunders that John was not permitted to pass on to us.
But one thing I have always determined to do, and that is to make sure the Bible determines my perception of this world. Not have my perception of this world determine my understanding of the Bible. That is what I think you are doing, Hank.
No judgement from me brother.
Although as we go up to our destination you might hear me say "Told ya so".
Yes of course - death comes in more than one form but all have their origin in sin of which Jesus Christ has totally conquered.
We have not yet seen that.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There would be some benefits to any individual who Spiritually Sees what ... J E S U S...I S ... T E A C H I N G...... in Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 16:28 that are two different verses.
The benefits are, 1.) Love of God, 2.) Love of God's Word, & 3.) EVANGELISM FIRE to IGNITE & PREACH to A LOST and DYING WORLD.
Our inquiry involves Matthew 16:28, HOWEVER, what ... J E S U S...IS ... T E A C H I N G....is TAUGHT BY EVERY PROPHET in THE OLD TESTAMENT and EVERY WRITER of PLAIN NEW TESTAMENT "TEACHINGS, as well as the most cryptic, Apocalyptic genre of Revelation, Daniel 7 through 9, Matthew 24, and specifically Revelation chapter 20.
Question. It's time to get serious. May YOUR SAVIOR DISPENSE SOME REVELATION and DIVINE "T E A C H I N G" to you, as His child and Servant??
Jesus Christ actually Has a Term that He Used during His Earthly Ministry to DESCRIBE A FOLLOWER of HIS that WILL ALLOW the Holy Spirit to IMPART to THEIR SOUL, HIS...T E A C H I N G S.....
The "TEACHINGS" OF JESUS, DIRECTLY that I am talking about regarding the following particularities within Scripture that, for one, Spurgeon missed, entirely, in his article on this Matthew 16:28 Scripture.
This type of Reference, by Jesus, and by God through His Prophets ARE OFTEN, i.e., a 'hundred or more times', or more, are like this:
Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 16:28 contain two different phases, with two different, significant, words:
In Matthew 16: 27; "Glory" and in Matthew 16: 28, "Kingdom".
"Matthew 16: 27; For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
" 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Am I suggesting that these two Concepts,
Expressed by our Lord, be given consideration in these Passages, as to their Separate meanings.
Matthew 16: 27; "the glory of his Father with his angels",
&
Matthew 16:28; "the Son of man coming in his kingdom".
I 'expounded' on their differences in my initial answer, which I will copy, below.
I want to ask you all something.
Do you know what Jesus Called His followers that Understood what He Has Taught, here?
Secondly, is there someone who wants to know?
The benefits are, 1.) Love of God, 2.) Love of God's Word, & 3.) EVANGELISM FIRE to IGNITE & PREACH to A LOST and DYING WORLD.
Our inquiry involves Matthew 16:28, HOWEVER, what ... J E S U S...IS ... T E A C H I N G....is TAUGHT BY EVERY PROPHET in THE OLD TESTAMENT and EVERY WRITER of PLAIN NEW TESTAMENT "TEACHINGS, as well as the most cryptic, Apocalyptic genre of Revelation, Daniel 7 through 9, Matthew 24, and specifically Revelation chapter 20.
Question. It's time to get serious. May YOUR SAVIOR DISPENSE SOME REVELATION and DIVINE "T E A C H I N G" to you, as His child and Servant??
Jesus Christ actually Has a Term that He Used during His Earthly Ministry to DESCRIBE A FOLLOWER of HIS that WILL ALLOW the Holy Spirit to IMPART to THEIR SOUL, HIS...T E A C H I N G S.....
The "TEACHINGS" OF JESUS, DIRECTLY that I am talking about regarding the following particularities within Scripture that, for one, Spurgeon missed, entirely, in his article on this Matthew 16:28 Scripture.
This type of Reference, by Jesus, and by God through His Prophets ARE OFTEN, i.e., a 'hundred or more times', or more, are like this:
Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 16:28 contain two different phases, with two different, significant, words:
In Matthew 16: 27; "Glory" and in Matthew 16: 28, "Kingdom".
"Matthew 16: 27; For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
" 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Am I suggesting that these two Concepts,
Expressed by our Lord, be given consideration in these Passages, as to their Separate meanings.
Matthew 16: 27; "the glory of his Father with his angels",
&
Matthew 16:28; "the Son of man coming in his kingdom".
I 'expounded' on their differences in my initial answer, which I will copy, below.
I want to ask you all something.
Do you know what Jesus Called His followers that Understood what He Has Taught, here?
Secondly, is there someone who wants to know?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
JESUS "TAUGHT": That as Jesus' Disciples (that He was Speaking to and other Believing Followers Live and Serve Jesus Within this Glorious Kingdom), in the previous vs. "whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" that they would be Rewarded Accordingly, as we see in vs 27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." "The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father", in the previous verse, 27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels", applies to the Ultimate End of Time and Consummation of the Age, involving Judgment and The Promise to His children of Rewards and is STATED as: "the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father".
The next vs. is STATED as "the Son of man coming in his kingdom", in 28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Clarification of Interpretation #1: The Ultimate End of Time and Consummation of the Age, involving Judgment and The Promise to His children of Rewards in vs 26: "The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father".
Clarification of Interpretation #2: His Coming, to show His Regal Power and Authority in the destruction of the Jews in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION by The Romans vs. : 28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
These two Clarifications would answer the reason why Spurgeon completely misses Jesus TEACHING, by attempting to combine the two verses, and ASSUME they have Referenced to the same event:
Spurgeon: "" Will you carefully read the chapter through at your leisure, and see if you can find anything about the siege of Jerusalem in it? Yet this is the interpretation that finds favor at the present time! Some persons were standing there who would be alive when Jerusalem should be destroyed by the Romans!!
Nothing surely could be more foreign to the entire scope of our Lord’s discourse, or the narrative of the evangelists. There is not the slightest shadow of a reference to the siege of Jerusalem. It is the coming of the Son of man which is here spoken of, “in the glory of His Father with His angels, to reward men according to their works.” Whenever Jesus spoke of the siege of Jerusalem and of its coming, he was known to say, “Assuredly I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled,” but He never singled out some few persons and said to them, “Assuredly I say unto you, there are some standing here which shall not taste of death, till the city of Jerusalem is besieged and destroyed.”"
Spurgeon, then, does not 'allow' Jesus to Teach Regarding '“Assuredly I say unto you, there are some standing here which shall not taste of death' and Have that Reference BE SPEAKING OF "" the city of Jerusalem ... besieged and destroyed".""
HOWEVER,
The verses in Matthew 24 speak of Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans
27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans )
28 "For wheresoever the carcass is" (The Destroyed Jews), "there will the eagles (Romans) be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans ) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (TEMPORAL CIVIL AUTHORITIES, in GOVERNMENTAL POWER)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (JESUS SENT PREACHERS PREACHING)".
God's Message to us is for PREACHERS to PREACH JESUS, IF YOU ARE CALLED and SENT: "his angels with a great sound of a trumpet", BECAUSE Just as those who LIVED to SEE Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans, JESUS is COMING AGAIN, Ultimately to SEPARATE the SHEEP from the GOATS. (These points fit the rest of The Bible, like a hand in a glove, including those properly Interpreted in Matthew 24, etc.)
The next vs. is STATED as "the Son of man coming in his kingdom", in 28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Clarification of Interpretation #1: The Ultimate End of Time and Consummation of the Age, involving Judgment and The Promise to His children of Rewards in vs 26: "The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father".
Clarification of Interpretation #2: His Coming, to show His Regal Power and Authority in the destruction of the Jews in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION by The Romans vs. : 28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
These two Clarifications would answer the reason why Spurgeon completely misses Jesus TEACHING, by attempting to combine the two verses, and ASSUME they have Referenced to the same event:
Spurgeon: "" Will you carefully read the chapter through at your leisure, and see if you can find anything about the siege of Jerusalem in it? Yet this is the interpretation that finds favor at the present time! Some persons were standing there who would be alive when Jerusalem should be destroyed by the Romans!!
Nothing surely could be more foreign to the entire scope of our Lord’s discourse, or the narrative of the evangelists. There is not the slightest shadow of a reference to the siege of Jerusalem. It is the coming of the Son of man which is here spoken of, “in the glory of His Father with His angels, to reward men according to their works.” Whenever Jesus spoke of the siege of Jerusalem and of its coming, he was known to say, “Assuredly I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled,” but He never singled out some few persons and said to them, “Assuredly I say unto you, there are some standing here which shall not taste of death, till the city of Jerusalem is besieged and destroyed.”"
Spurgeon, then, does not 'allow' Jesus to Teach Regarding '“Assuredly I say unto you, there are some standing here which shall not taste of death' and Have that Reference BE SPEAKING OF "" the city of Jerusalem ... besieged and destroyed".""
HOWEVER,
The verses in Matthew 24 speak of Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans
27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans )
28 "For wheresoever the carcass is" (The Destroyed Jews), "there will the eagles (Romans) be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans ) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (TEMPORAL CIVIL AUTHORITIES, in GOVERNMENTAL POWER)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (JESUS SENT PREACHERS PREACHING)".
God's Message to us is for PREACHERS to PREACH JESUS, IF YOU ARE CALLED and SENT: "his angels with a great sound of a trumpet", BECAUSE Just as those who LIVED to SEE Jesus' Coming in TEMPORAL, PROVIDENTIAL PERSECUTION of The Jews by The Romans, JESUS is COMING AGAIN, Ultimately to SEPARATE the SHEEP from the GOATS. (These points fit the rest of The Bible, like a hand in a glove, including those properly Interpreted in Matthew 24, etc.)