I have to say that's a bit pathetic. What is it about the words 'Debate Forum' that you don't understand? I haven't the least intention of buying the book so you need to summarize what it's saying and debate it-- interact with what some of us have written and explain to us how we are misusing the Scriptures. Otherwise you're just spamming.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The "Sons of God" issue has been settled. Did you get the memo?
- Thread starter Buckethead Baptist
- Start date
- Status
I was interested to read about this topic in the debate forum, then disappointed that there was little interaction with scripture. Sounds more like an advertisement for a book. This is supposed to be a debate forum; there is a different forum for books and publications.
Books & Publications Forum
I was taught that it is better to pick nits than to have to deal with full grown lice!
Does anyone think, at some point in time in the past and you can begin with yesterday if you want, did the devil, called Satan or the adversary if you prefer ascend from the earth into heaven with the purpose of taking the throne of God for himself?
If you think yes, when?
If you think yes, do you think he did this alone or with other spirit beings?
Do you think they were cast back to the earth? When?
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Was the great salvation that was first begun to be spoken by the Lord, the gospel of the kingdom of God?
Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Does that imply that either this present world (whatever that means) or some previous world is and or was subjected to angels (good and or bad)? IMHO it is the world of Genesis 1-6 and beyond.
There are many references to this ie Sodom and when Daniel prayed and the angel was hindered in coming for he had to battle with another angel with the prince (demon I believe) of Persia. Also the body of Moses being fought over.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world (age), against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Who was Eve wrestling with? The ruler of [ and darkness was upon the face of the deep]
Why was the woman taken from the man? So that> For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6 Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4 why? verse 5.
I say it is because of the ruler of darkness God laid the foundation of the world to manifest his Son born of woman to destroy the ruler of darkness and his works.
From Adam to Christ, the death of the Christ and then Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
If you think yes, when?
If you think yes, do you think he did this alone or with other spirit beings?
Do you think they were cast back to the earth? When?
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Was the great salvation that was first begun to be spoken by the Lord, the gospel of the kingdom of God?
Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Does that imply that either this present world (whatever that means) or some previous world is and or was subjected to angels (good and or bad)? IMHO it is the world of Genesis 1-6 and beyond.
There are many references to this ie Sodom and when Daniel prayed and the angel was hindered in coming for he had to battle with another angel with the prince (demon I believe) of Persia. Also the body of Moses being fought over.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world (age), against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Who was Eve wrestling with? The ruler of [ and darkness was upon the face of the deep]
Why was the woman taken from the man? So that> For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6 Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4 why? verse 5.
I say it is because of the ruler of darkness God laid the foundation of the world to manifest his Son born of woman to destroy the ruler of darkness and his works.
From Adam to Christ, the death of the Christ and then Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
In the future it would be better not to quote within another member's post, as it can lead to confusion as to who said what.
If you need any help concerning quoting procedure, let me know, I'll be glad to help.
When you can show me where `edah demands a translation of council rather than congregation, then perhaps that rendering might be accepted, however, the context of the Psalm makes it very clear that men, not gods, not a divine council is in view.
And we will get to that.
You have made a syllogistic conclusion:
Minor Premise: The ESV says a "Divine Council" is in view;
Major Premise: "Basically... these are the same guys of Genesis 6."
Conclusion: Angels are in view and they intermingled with humanity and produced offspring.
There is no way to come to the conclusion that anyone other than men are in view in Psalm 82.
Again, we will get to that.
We don't assume that this is why God judged globally, primarily because we are told why God judged globally:
Genesis 6
King James Version (KJV)
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Not a single thing mentioned about Angels, Demons, or any other created being, just...Man.
So let's look at your statement again:
"Normal ruling men" are a primary theme throughout Scripture. We see the failure of rulers such as Moses, then that of Judges, then that of Kings, then that of Prophets (and so called "prophets," they which be false), and then lastly the role of Teacher, which is contrasted with the Old Testament equivalent, the false prophet, of past Ages.
How they rule has always been important.
Secondly, rulers taking at whim women from the general population is tantamount to rape. I think that fits well with "every imagination of his heart was only evil continually.
Lastly, it is not just one act of sin in view concerning the destruction of the world then, it is man's condition as a whole, and all of his sin. We might view this as the "straw that broke the camel's back," so to speak.
So show me why.
It doesn't help me, BHB, if I am in error and you just tell me I am. You need to show me, or anyone else you perceive as in error.
Please, finish dinner, then we can continue...
No surprise there. Because we see the concept of "sons of God" in both.
BHB, we don't exegete Scripture from translations.
And translations, though being correct in their translation, are not the final word. We must examine the context of the text in detail, compare it with all relevant passages, and then conclude.
I agree. I said that.
The question before us is "...are the sons of GOd men or spiritual beings?"
Great translation.
A few things we could consider here:
1. If in view is a "divine council" that stands outside of the temporal, there is no reason we have to conclude that it is...
...the divine council itself that is on trial;
2. We do not have to conclude that the term "gods" is not used of men, and that would make little sense when the context of the Psalm goes on to verify that on trial, so to speak, are men;
3. The "gods" being shown to be men (and again, we will get to why they are men) are judged, and it is perfectly acceptable to see this judgment effected by a "divine council" if we allow this to be a proper understanding and translation;
4. An understanding of "God standing in the 'Congregation' " fits better with the consistent theme of God as Judge over men.
Continued...
As I said, in view...are men.
BHB, can you show me one passage where Angels or demons...
1. Judge men;
2. Could possibly "judge justly" among men;
3. Give justice to the weak;
4.Defend the afflicted and destitute;
5. Rescue the weak and needy;
6. Deliver the weak and the needy from the hand of the wicked;
...?
In v.5 we do not see a correlation of God's judgment of men in Genesis 6.
In vv.6-7 we see that the rulers in view will, despite their exalted positions, die like men. That is not the case with demons. In view is basically "You will die like other men despite your exalted positions."
It is not unusual for rulers in antiquity to consider themselves "gods."
And no commentary on the presented view.
You did fine, lol. Nothing harsh about it.
Again, I would recommend better quoting procedure (this is just common courtesy on a debate forum) and refrain from letting this issue be a point of irritation for you. People are just going to disagree over the interpretation of the passage.
If everyone agreed, we'd have nothing to discuss, right?
That's okay, you have not been given the Sethite view, you have been given the Darrell C view.
And in point of fact it was not given to you, but another member.
Its not going to affect my thoughts on both passages, because we do not see a judgment of Angels or Demons in Psalm 82, but the judgment of men who are charged with being just to the congregations they rule over.
God bless.
The sons of god could be either fallen angels, or else the sinful line of humans that intermingled with godly line. either understanding valid/acceptable!
Was the author getting their understanding from the scriptures only, or from some other other sources!
We can't have two correct and acceptable interpretations.
We can set them to the side and allow men disagree, sure, but there is only one correct view. They are either Angels or men. And I think the context makes it clear which they are, as does Psalm 82.
God bless.
I don't.
I take the view that Satan was an Angel that thought more highly of himself than he ought, and departed from the reality that God is Sovereign over all that is created. He was then cast out, and from that time forth has been a thorn in the side of mankind, seeking to destroy anything he can.
One of the things to consider is Satan's access to Heaven itself. I would suggest that passages thought to imply Satan entering into Heaven (Job 1, for example) might be re-examined to see if we actually see that in the text.
God bless.
That is assumptive that the interpretation presented demands an embrace of that view on the part of the Apostles.
Not sure I would want to hang my hat on what "the First Century Jews" believed, and for the First Century Jews we can believe (namely the Apostles who were writers of Scripture), that is the point of the discussion, to examine what they were teaching.
There is another:
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Luke 10:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
The issue to be examined here, to be discussed and debated...is the chronology.
Does Scripture speak in general terms in regards to the Ancient Serpent, or do we force a chronological Timeline?
God bless.
I think that we can, as it is open as to what they really were, but I do think that fallen angels fits better!
Sorry, Yeshua, no...there is not two right answers.
They are either men or Angels.
Consult the Word of God and allow Him to speak to you about it. If you consult books about it, you will likely embrace the view that the book your reading has embraced.
God bless.
Peter and Jude seem to see them as being fallen Angels!
So present the Scripture and show why you believe they "seem to see them as being fallen Angels."
As one asked, how is this exegetically linked?
And have to get going, hope you guys have a blessed day, and that the discussions help us in our understanding.
Malachi 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
God bless.
Peter stated that the angels left their firsy abode, and took on strange flesh, and jude seems to confirm that also!
What is your understanding of Luke 10:18
and he said to them, 'I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen;
Also what do you mean by, "He was then cast out,"?
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
In your opinion did the works of the devil begin with Eve?
Was it foreordained before the foundation of the world that, Christ, the Son of the living God, would be manifested with the life of the flesh, being in the blood? 1 Peter 1:19,20 Matt. 16:16 Lev. 17:11
If the answer is yes and I believe the Word says it is, then the manifestation of the Word made flesh, wasn't a reaction of God to sin and death but because sin and death was already present in Satan, the devil who preceded man and man would bring it forth upon all men for the purpose of God destroying the devil and his works through, redemption that is in the blood of Christ.
Would you agree that being redeemed by the blood, is the means by which, the devil and his works are destroyed?
And where does Peter or Jude say, "And those angels are also the "sons of God" in Genesis 6?"
That is what exegetical connection means. It means you must show an exegetical connection between Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 and Genesis 6.
Really? Where does it say that? My bible says the angels "kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation." Jude 6.
It was the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh. Jude 7.
Did you confuse the two?
And, of course, 2 Peter makes no mention of any such thing either.
So, again I ask you, please show an exegetical connection between Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 and Genesis 6.
As Buckethead, the OP of this thread is now banned. This thread is now closed.
- Status