The Sovereignty of God

[pinoybaptist]

The Sovereignty of God the Son in Salvation (cont'd)

1) The limited design in the Atonement follows, necessarily, from the eternal choice of the Father of certain ones unto salvation. The Scriptures inform us that before the Lord became incarnate He said, "Lo, I come, to do Thy will O God" (Heb. 10:7), and after He had become incarnate He declared, "For I came down from Heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me" (John 6:38). If then God had from the beginning chosen certain ones to salvation, then, because the will of Christ was in perfect accord with the will of the Father, He would not seek to enlarge upon His election. What we have just said is not merely a plausible deduction of our own, but is in strict harmony with the express teaching of the Word. Again and again our Lord referred to those whom the Father had "given" Him, and concerning whom He was particularly exercised. Said He, "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out... And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:37, 39). And again, "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee; As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him...I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy Word... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine... Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:1, 2, 6, 9, 24). Before the foundation of the world the Father predestinated a people to be conformed to the image of His Son, and the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus was in order to the carrying out of the Divine purpose.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Unfortunately, Calvinists Christians are not going to be able to come up with more bonified saints than Arminian Christians would be able to locate or identify. If you want to say it this way fine with me. God is not doing too well considering only 2-3% being saved. 'Few there be that find it.' God calls all to repentance; only a few open their lives to Jesus.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Unfortunately, Calvinists Christians are not going to be able to come up with more bonified saints than Arminian Christians would be able to locate or identify. If you want to say it this way fine with me. God is not doing too well considering only 2-3% being saved. 'Few there be that find it.' God calls all to repentance; only a few open their lives to Jesus.

So, Ray, you have set for God the number of souls He is to save ?
And yet you Arminians accuse those of us in the Calvinist and Electionist position that we
do the limiting whereas what we simply say is that God has chosen to save many based on His mercy.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

It is because God knew that he would say yes that He chose Paul to do mighty works and enabled him to do so. Such is foreknowledge. Because it was Paul's free choice, it was not predestined by God to happen.

That's the biggest lie I've ever heard. What else could Paul have said??? I mean, he was struck blinde to his knees!!! How foolish such a statement then becomes. Here's what Paul said:

1. God set him apart from his mother's womb and called him and saved him by His grace when it pleased Him (Gal. 1:15).

2. God's power was effectual in converting him (Eph. 3:7). Hence, "effectual" calling of the saints.

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinoybaptist,

You said, ' . . . many will be saved because of His mercy.' What you forgot to say that your faith submits is that 'the majority will be escorted to Hell because of His alleged, autocratic, selection and sovereignty and right to portray the vindictive nature of the Lord. Right?

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinoybaptist,

As we both know and agree, the Triune God knows exactly just how many people will finally be saved.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God is not doing too well considering only 2-3% being saved. 'Few there be that find it.' God calls all to repentance; only a few open their lives to Jesus.

You should really quit this thinking of yours whereby you place percentage limits on how many people God will save, Ray, and characterizing God as failing. You are coming across as extremely pessimistic. I urge you to spend some time reading some of Charles Spurgeon's sermons. They might give you a more hopeful attitude toward evangelism.

God, not man, is sovereign.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

God is not failing at recruiting men and women into His Kingdom. We believe He died for everyone. He has done all that He can do. The problem is with man. He is depraved and selfish and does not respect the calling of God toward himself. Human beings determine their own final destiny.

Charles Spurgeon is not an uplift into the upper spiritual realm. Indeed, he has much good to say by way of spiritual truth, but he believed that God decreed the lost to Hell. And as we remember from Matt. 7:14 that the majority will not make it into the Presence of God, unless you believe they can get there other than through the atonement of Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

In some ways I am sure that he is correctly called, 'The Prince of Preachers.' but his theology was off the scope . . .

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
He has done all that He can do.

Ray, you have such a poor conception of God. Your "God" is too small.

Fortunately for man, God will save as many as He has purposed to save.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ken Hamilton,

God is not failing at recruiting men and women into His Kingdom. We believe He died for everyone. He has done all that He can do. The problem is with man. He is depraved and selfish and does not respect the calling of God toward himself. Human beings determine their own final destiny.

Charles Spurgeon is not an uplift into the upper spiritual realm. Indeed, he has much good to say by way of spiritual truth, but he believed that God decreed the lost to Hell. And as we remember from Matt. 7:14 that the majority will not make it into the Presence of God, unless you believe they can get there other than through the atonement of Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

In some ways I am sure that he is correctly called, 'The Prince of Preachers.' but his theology was off the scope . . .

You are in the company of such lost humanists as
Mao-Tse-Tung, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Joseph Engels, Jung, de Gaulle, etc., with that statement of yours, Ray.
"Human beings will determine their own final destiny." And no wonder, for your gospel is nothing more than a subtle form of humanism, and so is Arminianism.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

Is your god bigger than mine, one who allegedly, in eternity past chose only a certain number of elect ones? The ideas don't even hold together. No one has any idea why He allegedly chose His people.

God is bigger than to limit His number of people who will live with Him forever. We teach clearly that He made a way possible for everyone. What sinners do with Christ and His message is up to them.

We are not 'Secular Humanists' as you in error believe. Most if not all of those men are not Christians. We have beliefs about God that makes sense. But, then we will all be judged for our correct or incorrect instruction of the faith of Jesus.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
No one has any idea why He allegedly chose His people.

I do ... He chose us to be to the praise of the glory of his grace.

 

[tnelson]

Ray said no one has any idea why He allegely chose His people.

Eph.1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph.1:5 having predistined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph.1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

by His Grace
mike

 

[pinoybaptist]

Ray:

It wasn't Ken Hamilton who made mention of these humanists. It was I, and I lumped you and yours together with them. And I still do.
Now, I am not picking a fight with you when I did that. I was merely pointing out that in view of your various statements about God losing the battle and his purpose because of mankind's corrupt and depraved heart and of man deciding his final destiny for himself you are in effect extolling the greatness of man versus the sovereignty of God, and that makes you humanist.
In effect, you are saying, regardless of "about-face" statements you make under the same breath that you said those things you said, that man is mightier than God and able to defeat God's eternal decrees and purposes.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

What about those poor souls who the Lord allegedly deems victims of Hell? He is so secretive about it that He has not even told 'His servants the prophets.' This should tell Calvinists something.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I guess I was tired and mis-spoke myself. I know why God's people have a place in the Kingdom. We are to His praise. I was thinking about the majority of the lost. There is no plausible reason why God would choose to damn the majority of the world population of all time.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
There is no plausible reason why God would choose to damn the majority of the world population of all time.

He didn't. Those that are lost damn themselves by sin.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

pinoybaptist,

God does not have decrees that He ever placed in motion that wills the salvation of the 'few' and also the damnation of the majority.

This is what makes the rejection of grace so terrible. God provided salvation for all. God is not diminished in His reality, just because depraved, human beings continue to reject His offer. Nothing that I could ever say, or anyone else, could diminish the greatness and perfections of Almighty God.

If you are wrong, you and others have taught that God rejects the majority of humanity and loves only His elect, this then becomes the most terrible thing that anyone could ever attribute the the Living God, especially, if He died for every living human being. I wonder if people are in Hell today, because they heard that God only elects who He desires. Maybe the Devil whispered in their ear, "You're undesireable and He probably doesn't want you." Just a thought.

If we are wrong, we merely suggested that God is more magnanimous that He really is in relationship to human beings.

We too, believe in free grace and should never be classified as humanists. We also believe all of the orthodox doctrines and views of Christianity.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
What about those poor souls who the Lord allegedly deems victims of Hell? He is so secretive about it that He has not even told 'His servants the prophets.' This should tell Calvinists something.

Victims of hell?? I am confused. People who go to hell do so because of their sin. They are victims only of their bad choices. I am not sure what this should tell the Calvinists. YOu will have to explain.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

The majority didn't damn themselves; they never had the option of everlasting life with God, according to your thinking. God made the all-wise choice for all of those poor, lost sinners.