But whatever these speculative issues are, they cannot be contradictory to clearly revealed Scripture and theology and that is where yours is unable to meet the standard of Scripture. The implications of your position are ones that I cannot reconcile with Scripture. I can't even reconcile your outright statements with Scripture in many cases. I just find too much Scripture ot the contrary.
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The Sovereignty of God
- Thread starter pinoybaptist
- Start date
Yes the speculative issues are contradictory to scripture. That God passes over people for His "pleasure". The Bible does not expound any such thing, but it is read into scriptures which upon deeper study you see are not discussing that. Then when we give the scriptures showing that God does not get pleasure in that, then you claim it is a mystery, and try to pronounce the so-called "implications" of our position which are mostly straw men you then hold up to certain scriptures or logic and knock down. Even if in the end it will be true that those in Hell could have only been there (which I have not ruled out as a hypothetical possibility), what good is arguing that (and trying to prove that my view must lead to that as well) now?
Piper has claimed that the ordained destruction of individual sinners is not only for His pleasure, but for ours also, so we can see His wrath on others to get the "full range of His glory". Is that what you're looking forward to? Is this what we're all supposed to be looking forward to? Is this now a joyous occasion rather than a horrible one? Is this the attitude Paul had in Romans 9:3 regarding the very "vessels of wrath" he was speaking of? (Oh boy, I can't wait to see all those helpless people roast!)
Then this premise is just useless speculation that causes strife (1 Tim.6:3,4). If you believe, unlike the so-called "hyper-Calvinist" that God uses us to preach the Gospel and lead others to Christ, then this focus on "all those who finally will not have received Christ" is an unbiblical, unecessary distraction.
[ August 05, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
Piper has claimed that the ordained destruction of individual sinners is not only for His pleasure, but for ours also, so we can see His wrath on others to get the "full range of His glory". Is that what you're looking forward to? Is this what we're all supposed to be looking forward to? Is this now a joyous occasion rather than a horrible one? Is this the attitude Paul had in Romans 9:3 regarding the very "vessels of wrath" he was speaking of? (Oh boy, I can't wait to see all those helpless people roast!)
Then this premise is just useless speculation that causes strife (1 Tim.6:3,4). If you believe, unlike the so-called "hyper-Calvinist" that God uses us to preach the Gospel and lead others to Christ, then this focus on "all those who finally will not have received Christ" is an unbiblical, unecessary distraction.
[ August 05, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
Then you do not know Scripture. You have direct contradictions that you want to call mysteries. Our "direct contradictions" you want to call incoherency. That is simply untenable. It is a double standard.
The rest of your post doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That God passes over people to leave them in their willful sin cannot be questioned. That God's holiness is magnified in the punishment of sin cannot be questioned. That all that God does pleases him cannot be questioned. You can put them together however you wish. It is theologically unwise and unsound to ignore the ones you cannot comprehend.
I am not focusing on them. I have attempted to answer your question. Since I do not know who these people are, I preach the gospel to all and call all men to repentance.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Those who invite Jesus into their lives become the sons and daughters of the living God. We call this experience Justification as noted in Romans 8:30. All those who receive Christ in reality have been predestined to everlasting life with Him.
Rom 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV
Ray, I'm having a little trouble here.... I don't see the part about inviting..... I do know that it has become part of the great baptist tradition.... I just don't see where it came from...... I see the part about being foreknown, the part about being predestinated, and even the part about being called..... and that leads to justification, santification, and sonship. But inviting Jesus into your life or heart... where is the scriptural basis.... and is God under obligation to accept anyone/everyone who invites him into their life/heart. Believing is the only basis and requirement that I can see for salvation..... If you believe, you are saved. So what is the purpose of the invitation. Here's how I came to him: Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. I didn't have to invite... he did his own will and good pleasure, thank God, because I wasn't seeking or asking.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV
Ray, I'm having a little trouble here.... I don't see the part about inviting..... I do know that it has become part of the great baptist tradition.... I just don't see where it came from...... I see the part about being foreknown, the part about being predestinated, and even the part about being called..... and that leads to justification, santification, and sonship. But inviting Jesus into your life or heart... where is the scriptural basis.... and is God under obligation to accept anyone/everyone who invites him into their life/heart. Believing is the only basis and requirement that I can see for salvation..... If you believe, you are saved. So what is the purpose of the invitation. Here's how I came to him: Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. I didn't have to invite... he did his own will and good pleasure, thank God, because I wasn't seeking or asking.
Ray,
Where's that Scripture you are getting where election is said to be the result of belief? If you are going to claim a biblical position, you need to support it with the Bible. Please provide this verse for us to support your claim.
Where's that Scripture you are getting where election is said to be the result of belief? If you are going to claim a biblical position, you need to support it with the Bible. Please provide this verse for us to support your claim.
Once again, you're doing the same thing. The question is whether scripture really supports all of your positions:
These are your interpretations of scripture. But when challenged from other scripture, then you plead "mystery".
Well, it's the Calvinist writers (beginning with Augustine and Calvin himself) who focused on them, relegating everyone who did not accept the doctrine of reprobation/preterition as not having all the necessary truth. You today focus on it trying to defend that point of theology.
Once again, you're doing the same thing. The question is whether scripture really supports all of your positions:</font>[/QUOTE]You missed the point. My point is that you have a double standard becuase you call my "inconsistencies" incoherent and call your "inconsistencies" a mystery. The question is, What does Scripture say?
These are your interpretations of scripture. But when challenged from other scripture, then you plead "mystery".</font>[/QUOTE]God's holiness is magnified in teh punishment of sin (Rom 2). God does all that pleases him (Ps 115). God passes over people who are in wilfull sin (Rom 3, 8, 10, etc.). Your problem is with interpretation perhaps. The question should actually be about correlation, that is, how do these passages correlate with the rest of Scripture.
I am not trying to defend reprobation or preterition. I am defending the biblical teaching on election as God's sovereign choice of individuals to salvation in eternity past. Preterition or reprobation is an implication of the biblical teaching.
[ August 06, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
That's what was my point. But before, you were criticizing me just for speaking of "mystery" (when we can't explain something) when you were doing the same thing.
Exactly. No one is questioning any of that*, only the idea that there are many with absolutely no hope. *(Well, actually, the last point, if taken to mean giving people no hope, is not what those chapters say)
You're not trying to, but you are when you assume that these are the implications of scripture, read them into scripture, and then defend "biblical teaching" (which you would think implies this).
Since no one knows who they are, why do so many speculate about them and try to rub this in non-Calvinists' face? (leading to this debate). If we all preach the Gospel isn't that what matters the most.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Pastor Larry,
You do not want Scripture verses and exegesis, you desire of me a formula which says,
Believe + trust + salvation ='s Election. The Bible does not work this way. Neither can you produce a formula which says, Election + regeneration + believing ='s salvation.
John 3:16 indicates God's love for people. Jesus is the Mediator. Anyone believing in Him has everlasting life. Would you agree with me that anyone who has everlasting life is one of the elect of God?
Beyond this I cannot help you.
You do not want Scripture verses and exegesis, you desire of me a formula which says,
Believe + trust + salvation ='s Election. The Bible does not work this way. Neither can you produce a formula which says, Election + regeneration + believing ='s salvation.
John 3:16 indicates God's love for people. Jesus is the Mediator. Anyone believing in Him has everlasting life. Would you agree with me that anyone who has everlasting life is one of the elect of God?
Beyond this I cannot help you.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Let me help you, Ray, as I can.
(Rom 8:29-30 NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Election = Predestined
Called = Regeneration
Justified = Believing
Glad to be of service.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
[ August 06, 2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Election=Predestination I can see, but the others I don't.
KenH
Well-Known Member
We are called by the Holy Spirit through the gospel and it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates, who gives life.
We are justified by faith(believing).
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
We are justified by faith(believing).
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to call someone and them NOT be regenerated? If so, then one cannot equal the other.
And justification is a result of believing - they are not completely equivalent.
KenH
Well-Known Member
No. Not if you are talking about more than just the general call of the gospel. The effectual call is always effective.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
[ August 07, 2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken Hamilton,
The word foreknowledge means 'prognosis' to know before hand. We believe Almighty God knew and knows what everyone's choice will be as to His plan of salvation. God in His sovereignty has allowed/decreed that humans would have a free will. In this way God sends no one to Hell except those who remain self-willed against Him and His loving plan. [John 3:16] With our view we maintain the integrity of God as to Him being not prejudiced toward anyone. Theologians call this the Justice of God.
The word foreknowledge means 'prognosis' to know before hand. We believe Almighty God knew and knows what everyone's choice will be as to His plan of salvation. God in His sovereignty has allowed/decreed that humans would have a free will. In this way God sends no one to Hell except those who remain self-willed against Him and His loving plan. [John 3:16] With our view we maintain the integrity of God as to Him being not prejudiced toward anyone. Theologians call this the Justice of God.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken Hamilton,
There is no general call and effectual call. This is a figment of St. Augustine's mind and "Calvin's Institutes." God is unprejudiced as to who He calls out of their sins. [Revelation 22:17] We see your view of the 'general call' as His insincere call and His favored call the 'effectual call.'
The general call that you speak about is a universal call to everlasting life. [John 6:35] Man must come to Him having seen his or her need.
There is no general call and effectual call. This is a figment of St. Augustine's mind and "Calvin's Institutes." God is unprejudiced as to who He calls out of their sins. [Revelation 22:17] We see your view of the 'general call' as His insincere call and His favored call the 'effectual call.'
The general call that you speak about is a universal call to everlasting life. [John 6:35] Man must come to Him having seen his or her need.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Foreknew literally means to love before. Adam knew his wife Eve.
The verse in Romans is referring to people, not foreknowledge of actions.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
The verse in Romans is referring to people, not foreknowledge of actions.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org
You keep saying that this is Scriptural teaching but you have yet to produce one Scripture. Election is always prior to belief when the two are mentioned in the same context.
Yes. Everyone who believes is one of the elect. That is why they believe. But that is what you disagree with even though you have no Scripture to support you.
I think what it shows Ray, is that your theology is not based in the totality of Scripture but in several key verses used to prove a point that they don't address. John 3:16 does not address the issue of election. It is wrong to use it that way.
My point is that there are clear verses that solve your mystery.
Did God know what man's choices would be before he created them? If he did, then you people with no hope. Once agian, you are in the same position. But you must realize that these people don't want any hope. It is not that they are being held back from salvation against their will. They do not want to be saved.
Why do so many speculate about them? You have probably overestimated this. It is really not a huge topic of discussion except among the non-calvinists who want to use it as a basis for rejecting other things. Preaching the gospel is not what matters most. Pleasing God is. That is accomplished in part by preaching the gospel but it must also be a right gospel. Doctrine matters.