The Sovereignty of Jehovah

[Silverhair]

The gospel of Christ is not an offer, it is a declaration of the finished work of Christ.

The gospel tells us who Christ is and what He has done for us.

So you are correct it is not an offer, but then again I did not call the gospel an offer did I?

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you; unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

But what is an offer from God is that if you hear the gospel message and believe it {trust in God for your salvation} you will be saved.

 

[JD731]

The term "elect" or "election" is associated with only two entities in the scriptures.

Or I can point to the truth of God's word, the fact that He is teaching me and leading me into all truth, and the fact that my life is matching what the Scriptures say about a person who is saved, JD.
One can know that they are one of His elect by comparing what His word says to our lives as believers in Jesus Christ, over time.

In other words, the presence of the Holy Spirit in someone will leave "markers", and those markers are laid out in 1 John, among other places.
If someone does not have these necessary evidences, then they do not have the Spirit and they are none of His.

Quite the contrary, sir.
Election as described in the Scriptures ( particularly John 6, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and other places ), relies on God's choice of whom He would save...

Not on us determining who He saves by "taking Him up on His offer".

Every true believer in Jesus Christ can then give glory to God for His unspeakable grace towards them...
Sinners in need of a Saviour.

Here is the truth no matter how you try to get around it. There is no scriptural evidence that you, Dave G, was elected before the foundation of the world as you claim while others were not elected. Your salvation is based solely on your own opinion.

 

[KenH]

you hear the gospel message and believe it

The only ones who hear and believe the gospel of Christ are those God ordained for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

God does not make an offer. The gospel is God is not "if you will, then I(God) shall."; it is "I(God) shall, and you will."

The action commences with God, not man, for it is God that makes His elect willing by His power.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
In the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[Silverhair]

The only ones who hear and believe the gospel of Christ are those God ordained for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Think through what you have just posted here Ken. If indeed the only ones that can hear and believe are those picked out by God then all those that were not picked out have the best excuse possible for not trusting in God, they were not picked. Thus for God to be just He cannot condemn them for something they were unable to do and if you say they were condemned for their sin then it still falls back to Him as all have sinned so His justice is again called into question by your view.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ken you have got to learn to read things in context as it would clear up many of the false understandings that you have.

The Gentiles and Jews had heard Paul's gospel message, those that accepted it and trusted in the one spoken of took that direction for eternal life, and believed. Act_13:26-52 is showing the contrast between the resistant Jews and the willing Gentiles and should be read in a way that places the responsibility for believing on the people, that the people positioned themselves either for eternal life by accepting the truth or for eternal death by rejecting it.

God does not make an offer. The gospel is God is not "if you will, then I(God) shall."; it is "I(God) shall, and you will."

Actually that is just what the bible tells us. "if you will, then I(God) shall.";

Rom 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom_10:13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The bible is clear that is those that call on God for salvation will be saved.

The action commences with God, not man, for it is God that makes His elect willing by His power.

God draws us to Him via various means but He does not force us to believe in Him as you suggest.



Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes
Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Christ, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
In the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:
Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If man is forced to believe, he does not believe at all; it is the forcing power that believes for him. If he is forced to obey, it is the forcing power that obeys; and not the man.

Note the words in the verse you quote “Thy people shall be willing” it does not say made willing/forced as you seem to think. The people will volunteer freely in the day of His power.

 

[KenH]

Think through what you have just posted here Ken. If indeed the only ones that can hear and believe are those picked out by God then all those that were not picked out have the best excuse possible for not trusting in God, they were not picked. Thus for God to be just He cannot condemn them for something they were unable to do and if you say they were condemned for their sin then it still falls back to Him as all have sinned so His justice is again called into question by your view.

See my post #20 above.

Silverhair, all of us, are in absolutely no position to tell God what is "just". You, all of us, are mere creatures; God is the Creator.

As the old hymn by William Cowper says, "Judge not the Lord by feeble sense."

 

[KenH]

The Gentiles and Jews had heard Paul's gospel message, those that accepted it and trusted in the one spoken of took that direction for eternal life, and believed. Act_13:26-52 is showing the contrast between the resistant Jews and the willing Gentiles and should be read in a way that places the responsibility for believing on the people, that the people positioned themselves either for eternal life by accepting the truth or for eternal death by rejecting it.

Nope. The passage says those who were ordained to eternal life then believed. It does not say, as you are attempting to twist it into saying that those who believed were then ordained.

"Faith is not the cause, or condition of the decree of eternal life, but a means fixed in it, and is a fruit and effect of it, and what certainly follows upon it, as in these persons...and designs no other than predestination or election, which is God's act, and is an eternal one; is sovereign, irrespective, and unconditional; relates to particular persons, and is sure and certain in its effect: it is an ordination, not to an office, nor to the means of grace, but to grace and glory itself; to a life of grace which is eternal, and to a life of glory which is for ever; and which is a pure gift of God, is in the hands of Christ, and to which his righteousness gives a title: and ordination to it shows it to be a blessing of an early date; and the great love of God to the persons ordained to it; and the certainty of enjoying it."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Acts 13:48

 

[KenH]

Actually that is just what the bible tells us. "if you will, then I(God) shall.";

That was under the law, which the Jews were unable to keep, as there was no salvation in the law, as no mere man could ever keep the law perfectly and acquire the righteousness of God in that way; the law was a schoolmaster to bring God's elect to Christ(Galatians 3:24).

 

[KenH]

The bible is clear that is those that call on God for salvation will be saved.

And they ones who will call on God are His elect, whom He makes willing in the day of HIS power(Psalm 110:3).

 

[KenH]

but He does not force us to believe in Him

There is no force. God makes His elect willing in the day of HIS power (Psalm 110:3).

 

[KenH]

If man is forced to believe

God's elect are not forced to believe; they are made willing in the day of HIS power(Psalm 110:3).

 

[KenH]

If he is forced to obey

God's elect are not forced to obey; they obey by HIS creating and ordaining them to walk unto the good works under HIS workmanship.

 

[KenH]

in the day of His power.

HIS power, not the power of God's elect.

 

[KenH]

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

The Greek word for "draw" is the same Greek word used in John 21:11 when Peter dragged those 153 fishes in that net to the shore. Surely you don't think that those 153 fishes of their own free will brought themselves to the shore.

God is ALL POWERFUL. You and me and everyone else have no power to even lift our little finger to save ourselves.

Salvation is 100% of God, and 0% of man. And I am so very, very thankful that is the case, because if I had something to do with it, then I would certainly mess it up, I would certainly fail, I would be eternally lost.

 

[KenH]

Thus for God to be just He cannot condemn them for something they were unable to do

The apostle dealt with your argument long ago:

Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me,
Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?

And as far you judging God, the apostle also dealt with that argument long ago:

Romans 9:14-18 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Silverhair, you seem all hung up on man's will and apparently just toss God's will off to the side onto the trash heap of your conditionalist theology.

 

[Silverhair]

The apostle dealt with your argument long ago:

Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me,
Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?

And as far you judging God, the apostle also dealt with that argument long ago:

Romans 9:14-18 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Silverhair, you seem all hung up on man's will and apparently just toss God's will off to the side onto the trash heap of your conditionalist theology.

Will say one thing for you Ken, you are consistent. You continue to ignore clear scripture and hold to what some man has told you the text means. Continuing to ignore context is a major problem for you. Try as you might you can not make the bible support your theology.

 

[kyredneck]

@Silverhair:
“If we take your view as an example for all of humanity then God has actually only shown an interest in a few individuals.

Are you suggesting that God picked out, prior to birth, all those to be saved?”

Lol, it’s not fair is it Silv? “Is there unrighteousness with God”? “Why doth He still find fault? For who resisteth His will”?

 

[KenH]

If we take your view as an example for all of humanity then God has actually only shown an interest in a few individuals.

Not so. God has shown an interest in all people - He created the elect as the sheep and the reprobates as the goats, both to His purposes and glory.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself:
Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair:
“If we take your view as an example for all of humanity then God has actually only shown an interest in a few individuals.

Are you suggesting that God picked out, prior to birth, all those to be saved?”

Lol, it’s not fair is it Silv? “Is there unrighteousness with God”? “Why doth He still find fault? For who resisteth His will”?

KY it seems you do not believe that God actually loves His creation and died for the whole world. Your view make the word of God unreliable. The bible says He desires all to be saved and you say He does not. So who's word do you think I should trust KY?

Fair has nothing to do with it but that seems to be the fall back claim of many of the calvinists/reformed/PB's on this board.

You ask if God was unrighteous, well of course not but then again your limited selection view shows Him to be just that. UNRIGHTEOUSNESS may consist of a single unjust act or a violation of the plain principles of justice and equity. Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So since the will of God is that all should come to faith in Him.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And one of the means of that is through the gospel message.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes

So since you hold to the pre picked limited salvation model it seems you are the one that resists the will of God and speak back to Him.

So to be clear, God is not unrighteous or unjust. He has set the condition of salvation, FAITH in HIM.

 

[Silverhair]

Not so. God has shown an interest in all people - He created the elect as the sheep and the reprobates as the goats, both to His purposes and glory.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself:
Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The sad part of your theological view is that you do not even understand what you are doing to the character of God. You pick out and use out of context verses to support your errant view and dismiss the verses that show the love of God for His creation.

Mat_11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

 

[KenH]

The sad part of your theological view is that you do not even understand what you are doing to the character of God.

You and your fellow conditionalists are the ones who besmirch the character of the true God. The god of your imagination is a wimp, who is not almighty, cannot achieve his goals, who is subject to the will of his creatures. This excerpt from an article well describes you:

"Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]."

The god of your imagination, Silverhair, is a failure. In fact, your god is an idol and does not even exist. The Almighty God of the Bible does exist and no one, not you, not me, not Satan, NONE can thwart His will.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?