The Spirit and the Savior

[John of Japan]

The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Son does not glorify the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost sent Him as the Paraclete (Helper) to indwell us and to help us as we serve God and spread the Gospel of Christ around the world.

I recently sat on the ordination council of a young man going to the mission field. In his doctrinal statement, he only said that the Holy Spirit helped us with the Christian life in His filling of us, which is of course very true. However, he said nothing about the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the Gospel of Christ. When I mentioned this to him, he asked me for Scripture, so I gave him Acts 4:31, and he was helped: “And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.” This was apparently a help to him.

Scriptures about this:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26).

“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me” (John 15:26).

“13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you” (John 16:13-15).

Notice the Great Commission. In Luke they are told to wait in Jerusalem until they received “power from on high.” This is of course prophesying Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit gave them power. Then they were to preach Christ (Luke 24:46-49).

Notice the Great Commission in Acts 1:8 also. They were to preach Christ after receiving the power of the Holy Spirit. “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Note also the examples of the book of Acts. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came down and gave power to do God’s work. Did the apostles then preach about the Holy Spirit? No, of course not. They preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the power of the Spirit, and 3000 were saved!

Note also in the writing of Paul that the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ. See Eph. 4: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling” (v. 4.). What happens then? “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (vv. 11-12). So the Holy Spirit equips believers for the ministry of Christ.

Theologians agree on this. Here are just two quotes, though I’m sure I could give many:

“It is the work of the Holy Spirit to glorify Christ. In a similar way Christ sought not His own glory but the glory of Him that sent Him. (Jno. 7:18)” (R. A. Torrey, What the Bible Teaches, pp. 237; italics in the original.)

“The result of the teaching ministry of the Spirit is that Christ is glorified. If He is not glorified, than the Holy Spirit has not been ministering. Note also that it is not the Spirit who is glorified or who is supposed to be glorified in a religious service, but Christ. Further, if Christ is known only through the written Word, then He will be glorified when the Word of God is expounded in the power of the Spirit” (Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, pp. 339-440).

Conclusion: if you ever attend a church or conference where the Holy Spirit is talked up and glorified more than our Lord Jesus Christ, run away from there; don’t walk! They are preaching false fire. This is a common error of the Charismatic movement. (I’m thinking in particular of the so-called “Toronto Blessing” and similar “revivals.”)

Someone says, “How can I know this is happening?” Believe me, you will know. The Holy Spirit Himself will tell you in your heart, because He is here to glorify Christ, not Himself. You may even be able to quantify this in other ways.

 

[JesusFan]

The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Son does not glorify the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost sent Him as the Paraclete (Helper) to indwell us and to help us as we serve God and spread the Gospel of Christ around the world.

I recently sat on the ordination council of a young man going to the mission field. In his doctrinal statement, he only said that the Holy Spirit helped us with the Christian life in His filling of us, which is of course very true. However, he said nothing about the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the Gospel of Christ. When I mentioned this to him, he asked me for Scripture, so I gave him Acts 4:31, and he was helped: “And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.” This was apparently a help to him.

Scriptures about this:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26).

“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me” (John 15:26).

“13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you” (John 16:13-15).

Notice the Great Commission. In Luke they are told to wait in Jerusalem until they received “power from on high.” This is of course prophesying Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit gave them power. Then they were to preach Christ (Luke 24:46-49).

Notice the Great Commission in Acts 1:8 also. They were to preach Christ after receiving the power of the Holy Spirit. “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Note also the examples of the book of Acts. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came down and gave power to do God’s work. Did the apostles then preach about the Holy Spirit? No, of course not. They preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the power of the Spirit, and 3000 were saved!

Note also in the writing of Paul that the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ. See Eph. 4: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling” (v. 4.). What happens then? “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (vv. 11-12). So the Holy Spirit equips believers for the ministry of Christ.

Theologians agree on this. Here are just two quotes, though I’m sure I could give many:

“It is the work of the Holy Spirit to glorify Christ. In a similar way Christ sought not His own glory but the glory of Him that sent Him. (Jno. 7:18)” (R. A. Torrey, What the Bible Teaches, pp. 237; italics in the original.)

“The result of the teaching ministry of the Spirit is that Christ is glorified. If He is not glorified, than the Holy Spirit has not been ministering. Note also that it is not the Spirit who is glorified or who is supposed to be glorified in a religious service, but Christ. Further, if Christ is known only through the written Word, then He will be glorified when the Word of God is expounded in the power of the Spirit” (Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, pp. 339-440).

Conclusion: if you ever attend a church or conference where the Holy Spirit is talked up and glorified more than our Lord Jesus Christ, run away from there; don’t walk! They are preaching false fire. This is a common error of the Charismatic movement. (I’m thinking in particular of the so-called “Toronto Blessing” and similar “revivals.”)

Someone says, “How can I know this is happening?” Believe me, you will know. The Holy Spirit Himself will tell you in your heart, because He is here to glorify Christ, not Himself. You may even be able to quantify this in other ways.

Think that the single greatest need for any evangelist or missionary called of and by God would be their enabling and empowering by the Holy Spirit to do that work, not how much of their budget can be raised, their amount of education etc

 

[John of Japan]

Think that the single greatest need for any evangelist or missionary called of and by God would be their enabling and empowering by the Holy Spirit to do that work, not how much of their budget can be raised, their amount of education etc

Absolutely correct.

 

[Tenchi]

The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Son does not glorify the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost sent Him as the Paraclete (Helper) to indwell us and to help us as we serve God and spread the Gospel of Christ around the world.

But the Holy Spirit is called both the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9; Phil. 1:19, 1 Pe. 1:11), and the Spirit of (the living) God (Ro. 8:9; 15:19, 1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Cor. 3:3) and is, in orthodox Christianity, co-equal with God the Father and God, the Son. As God, then, is the Holy Spirit not worthy of worship and praise? Is the Holy Spirit a second-stringer in the Godhead? It was the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Ro. 1:4; 8:11); it is the Holy Spirit who imparts to us the life of Christ (Ro. 8:9-13) and the justification and sanctification obtained by Christ for us at Calvary (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pe. 1:2); it is the Holy Spirit who convicts, teaches, strengthens, comforts and transforms the born-again person (Jn. 14:26; 16:8-14; 1 Cor. 2:10-16; Ro. 8:13; 2 Cor. 1:3-5; 3:18; Eph. 3:16; Phil. 2:13; Ga. 5:22-23, etc.). There is, in fact, no spiritual regeneration, no being born-again, no walking with God in the New Covenant sense, without the Holy Spirit. In light of these, and many other, things the NT teaches us about the Holy Spirit, it is very odd to me how many Baptists work subtly to diminish his vital role in Christian living. The Holy Spirit helps but is far more than just a Helper to the child of God; he is, the Source of their life spiritually. And any believer who doesn't understand well the absolute necessity of walking in the Spirit (Ga. 5:16, 25) every day is ill-prepared to serve God in a way that truly pleases Him.

Conclusion: if you ever attend a church or conference where the Holy Spirit is talked up and glorified more than our Lord Jesus Christ, run away from there; don’t walk! They are preaching false fire.

What, exactly, is "more than our Lord Jesus Christ"? Is there a particular ratio you have in mind? If I teach a lesson on the Holy Spirit, and in doing so, speak more of him than of Christ, am I guilty of "false fire"? Of course not. If, in discipling a fellow believer, I emphasize the necessity and centrality of the Holy Spirit to walking well with God, as the Bible does, am I a purveyor of "false fire." Absolutely not. But I know plenty of Baptists who think the Holy Spirit is very nearly a dirty word, the interest only of wacky hyper-charismatics, or nutball Christian mystics and ought, really, never to be mentioned. Hold up Jesus, instead, they say, lift him high, but keep the Holy Spirit talk to yourself. In my experience, every one of these believers that I have discipled have had profound and widespread spiritual and moral compromise plaguing their lives, the transformation of them by the Spirit negligible, if not absent entirely, even after decades of being saved.

 

[John of Japan]

But the Holy Spirit is called both the Spirit of Christ (Ro. 8:9; Phil. 1:19, 1 Pe. 1:11), and the Spirit of (the living) God (Ro. 8:9; 15:19, 1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Cor. 3:3) and is, in orthodox Christianity, co-equal with God the Father and God, the Son. As God, then, is the Holy Spirit not worthy of worship and praise? Is the Holy Spirit a second-stringer in the Godhead? It was the Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Ro. 1:4; 8:11); it is the Holy Spirit who imparts to us the life of Christ (Ro. 8:9-13) and the justification and sanctification obtained by Christ for us at Calvary (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pe. 1:2); it is the Holy Spirit who convicts, teaches, strengthens, comforts and transforms the born-again person (Jn. 14:26; 16:8-14; 1 Cor. 2:10-16; Ro. 8:13; 2 Cor. 1:3-5; 3:18; Eph. 3:16; Phil. 2:13; Ga. 5:22-23, etc.). There is, in fact, no spiritual regeneration, no being born-again, no walking with God in the New Covenant sense, without the Holy Spirit. In light of these, and many other, things the NT teaches us about the Holy Spirit, it is very odd to me how many Baptists work subtly to diminish his vital role in Christian living. The Holy Spirit helps but is far more than just a Helper to the child of God; he is, the Source of their life spiritually. And any believer who doesn't understand well the absolute necessity of walking in the Spirit (Ga. 5:16, 25) every day is ill-prepared to serve God in a way that truly pleases Him.

Well, of course. I agree with all of this, but it doesn't address what I said. What's your point here? Are you expecting me to disagree with some of this? Maybe you suspect that I don't consider the Holy Spirit to be God Himself? I'm puzzled here.

What, exactly, is "more than our Lord Jesus Christ"? Is there a particular ratio you have in mind? If I teach a lesson on the Holy Spirit, and in doing so, speak more of him than of Christ, am I guilty of "false fire"? Of course not. If, in discipling a fellow believer, I emphasize the necessity and centrality of the Holy Spirit to walking well with God, as the Bible does, am I a purveyor of "false fire." Absolutely not. But I know plenty of Baptists who think the Holy Spirit is very nearly a dirty word, the interest only of wacky hyper-charismatics, or nutball Christian mystics and ought, really, never to be mentioned. Hold up Jesus, instead, they say, lift him high, but keep the Holy Spirit talk to yourself. In my experience, every one of these believers that I have discipled have had profound and widespread spiritual and moral compromise plaguing their lives, the transformation of them by the Spirit negligible, if not absent entirely, even after decades of being saved.

Again, I'm not sure what you are saying here or why you are saying it. Do you expect me to disagree with your points about the Holy Spirit? He is God, the third person of the trinity. My points are about the role the Holy Spirit Himself takes in this present dispensation.

Will you please address the Scriptures I used?

 

[John of Japan]

Conclusion: if you ever attend a church or conference where the Holy Spirit is talked up and glorified more than our Lord Jesus Christ, run away from there; don’t walk! They are preaching false fire. This is a common error of the Charismatic movement. (I’m thinking in particular of the so-called “Toronto Blessing” and similar “revivals.”)

Someone says, “How can I know this is happening?” Believe me, you will know. The Holy Spirit Himself will tell you in your heart, because He is here to glorify Christ, not Himself. You may even be able to quantify this in other ways.

John MacArthur quoted Mark Thompson talking about a "Third Wave" Charismatic meeting in Sydney that describes exactly what I am talking about with my statement: "Firstly, the cross of Jesus got only one brief mention in all the General Meetings and workshops I attended during the conference.... Secondly, and even more seriously, there was not gospel in the so-called evangelistic meeting. The cross of Jesus was not central; the atonement was not explained; and mankind's need and the provision of redemption not even cursorily treated" (MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, p. 165, quoting Thompson in "Spiritual Warfare: What Happens When I Contradict Myself," in The Briefing, April 24, 1990).

 

[JesusFan]

John MacArthur quoted Mark Thompson talking about a "Third Wave" Charismatic meeting in Sydney that describes exactly what I am talking about with my statement: "Firstly, the cross of Jesus got only one brief mention in all the General Meetings and workshops I attended during the conference.... Secondly, and even more seriously, there was not gospel in the so-called evangelistic meeting. The cross of Jesus was not central; the atonement was not explained; and mankind's need and the provision of redemption not even cursorily treated" (MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, p. 165, quoting Thompson in "Spiritual Warfare: What Happens When I Contradict Myself," in The Briefing, April 24, 1990).

Much of modern day Charismatic Theology seems to be presenting to us Jesus as someone who was not God fully, but someone who learned how to operate "full in the Kingdom by the Holy Spirit", more of an example to us what we could and should all be doing right now

 

[John of Japan]

Much of modern day Charismatic Theology seems to be presenting to us Jesus as someone who was not God fully, but someone who learned how to operate "full in the Kingdom by the Holy Spirit", more of an example to us what we could and should all be doing right now

And they preach that we can become "little gods" just like Jesus--Kenneth Copeland and others.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is the result of the Charismatic view of the Holy Spirit, which veers away from the Holy Spirit's ministry in this dispensation, which is to lift up Christ and empower Christians to preach Christ. In particular, this addresses the "Signs and Wonders" movement, pushed by John Wimber, who replaced Donald McGavran (founder of the “Church Growth” movement) at Fuller Theological Seminary.

“Wimber claims that various physical phenomena take place when the Holy Spirit’s power comes on a person. They include shaking and trembling, falling down…, a euphoric state resembling drunkenness, jumping up and down, contraction of the hands making them clawlike, facial contortions, stiffening of the body trembling, fluttering of the eyelids, heavy breathing, sensations of heat, perspiring, and a feeling of weight on the chest” (MacArthur, op cit, 173).

Note that none of these so-called results of the filling of the Holy Spirit exalts Jesus Christ. They don't really exalt the Holy Spirit, either, making Him simply the author of "excitement" instead of the Paraclete, called alongside to help uplift Christ and empower believers to serve Christ.

Edited in: The "Signs and Wonders" movement of Wimber teaches that before proclaiming the Gospel, we should see miracles, or "signs and wonders," occur to validate our message. But Jesus did not say, "Go ye into all the world and perform signs and wonders," but "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel!" (Mark 16:15, of course).

 

[Tenchi]

Well, of course. I agree with all of this, but it doesn't address what I said. What's your point here? Are you expecting me to disagree with some of this? Maybe you suspect that I don't consider the Holy Spirit to be God Himself? I'm puzzled here.

No, I don't think you'd disagree with what Scripture says about the Holy Spirit. But, like many Baptists I've encountered over the years, you seem to be trying to subtly diminish the Holy Spirit, regardless; as I said, making him a sort of "second-stringer" on "Team God," though he is co-equal with the Son and the Father and utterly essential to Christian living.

My points are about the role the Holy Spirit Himself takes in this present dispensation.

While the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, this doesn't necessitate that he be relegated to a dim corner of Christian thought and practice, as I see so often that he is, especially by Baptists. This is my main concern in responding to what you've posted. I hope you aren't the sort who downplays, and perhaps even obscures, the essential place that the Holy Spirit occupies in the believer's life, but I don't know anything, really, about you so I make the comments I have.

If the "shoe" of my comments doesn't "fit" you, please ignore it.

 

[Tenchi]

Note that none of these so-called results of the filling of the Holy Spirit exalts Jesus Christ. They don't really exalt the Holy Spirit, either, making Him simply the author of "excitement" instead of the Paraclete, called alongside to help uplift Christ and empower believers to serve Christ.

As well, the Spirit of Christ is working in every believer to "conform them to the image of Christ" (Ro. 8:29; 2 Cor. 4:7-11; Ga. 5:22-23), ministering to them Christ's life as they walk in daily submission to his control, giving them both the ability and the desire to do God's will (Phil. 2:13).

 

[John of Japan]

No, I don't think you'd disagree with what Scripture says about the Holy Spirit. But, like many Baptists I've encountered over the years, you seem to be trying to subtly diminish the Holy Spirit, regardless; as I said, making him a sort of "second-stringer" on "Team God," though he is co-equal with the Son and the Father and utterly essential to Christian living.

Absolutely not. I would never diminish the Holy Spirit. He is the third person of the trinity, and I teach and preach His importance in this dispensation.

While the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, this doesn't necessitate that he be relegated to a dim corner of Christian thought and practice, as I see so often that he is, especially by Baptists.

Not by this Baptist.

This is my main concern in responding to what you've posted. I hope you aren't the sort who downplays, and perhaps even obscures, the essential place that the Holy Spirit occupies in the believer's life, but I don't know anything, really, about you so I make the comments I have.

If the "shoe" of my comments doesn't "fit" you, please ignore it.

I have written nothing on this thread or the previous one which diminishes the Holy Spirit. I even shared some of my teaching about Him in the previous thread.

Now, you have still not interacted with the Scriptures I gave which prove that the Holy Spirit points people to Christ. That is the direct purpose of the convicting of the Holy Spirit, regeneration, the filling of the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

 

[JesusFan]

And they preach that we can become "little gods" just like Jesus--Kenneth Copeland and others.

They seem to really see the kenosis heresy to be applied towards Jesus, and many of them also see Jesus not as eternally preexisting as a real Person in Heaven before Incarnation, but as a concept "in the mind of God" who then was birthed into existence

 

[John of Japan]

They seem to really see the kenosis heresy to be applied towards Jesus, and many of them also see Jesus not as eternally preexisting as a real Person in Heaven before Incarnation, but as a concept "in the mind of God" who then was birthed into existence

They get this heresy from the "manifest sons of God" heresy of the Latter Rain Movement. This movement from the late 1940's was ejected from the Assemblies of God and other mainline Pentecostal ("First Wave") denominations. I ran into the disciples of one of their missionaries in Japan when they tried to teach tongues, etc., to a young couple from our church. I had never heard of it, but in His providence God had led me to buy a computer disk that had information about the heresy, so I wrote the author and he helped me further. He also taught me about the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, a hotbed of the heresy.

Besides that heresy, it's pastor, Mike Bickel, is now being accused of abuse by 17 different people.

Report details 17 cases of abuse by IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle

(RNS) — ‘His actions not only violated the sanctity of his role but also caused profound harm to those he was meant to guide and protect,’ the report said.

religionnews.com