The stepping stones of Justification

[atpollard]

I believe God judges who has real faith and who doesn't.

Our personal beliefs are just opinions. The WORD OF GOD is truth.
So can you present a case from scripture that supports this "opinion"?

 

[atpollard]

Some men can say they believe and change there minds 5 minutes latter. We believe that we might be saved, as in;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
Belief is very necessary.

Now we are getting at the meat. Could you expand on this concept so I can understand what you mean by "belief" and how the verse you quoted relates to men changing their minds in 5 minutes and "our" belief being necessary. As a start, WHAT IS BELIEF?

 

[atpollard]

This tells us that we believe that we might be saved not that we will be saved, of course we hope to be saved.

Actually, doesn't John 3 say that those who believe are saved? (not MAYBE or HOPE TO BE).

[John 3:16-21 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

"Shall not perish" sounds like a certainty.
How can a man be "not judged" but still condemned?

Beyond that, we have the greater context where the judgement already on those that do not belive and not on those that do believe is explained. Those that are judged (the non believers) flee and hide from the Light (Jesus) because they do evil and love sin. Those that are "not judged" come to the light because their works have been "WROUGHT IN GOD".

 

[atpollard]

Where does it say that your faith is a gift from God in those verses?.

Nowhere. Where did I claim that those verses said "faith is a gift from God"?

Philosophy at work again is it?

No.
I asked someone their opinion of those verses and suggested a common response while asking if they had a different thought.
You should go back and reread the exchange more carefully so that you might gain insight into opinions other than your own. That was what I did with both Van and Aaron. I listened and then asked honest questions about what they had said to learn more.

Notice that it is the man who believes and that it is his faith. Not a so called gift of faith.

What is faith? (Biblically speaking)
How does that fit in with Ephesians 2:1-10?
How does that fit in with the hearts of Acts 2:37 and Acts 16:14?
How does that fit with John 10 and the extended shepherd/sheep analogy?
How does that fit with John 3 and being "born from above"?

 

[Van]

What does this line mean?
(I understood everything else in the post except this.)

It means no answer to the question asked will be offered.

The stepping stones to justification do not include the fiction of "the gift of faith via irresistible grace." If God had instilled the "gift of faith" He would not need to credit our faith as righteousness. No answer will be forthcoming.

No one is going to explain why God credits our faith as righteousness, after He instills His faith into us. There is no answer, the premise of instilled faith is a fiction.

And no amount of feigned ignorance can sidestep this obvious truth.

 

[Van]

That is a VERY inaccurate translation. Not even up to the standards of a bad paraphrase. More like a JW Hatchet Job on John 1.

This is a VERY inaccurate analysis. Not even up to the standards of a humorous parody.

 

[Aaron]

Translation: Do not show me facts, my mind is made up, and even if Truth Himself told me to change, I would bury my head in the sand....

What? I need to show you where it was said that sons of God are born not by the will of man? That it's by grace that any might have a will to please and to please Him, because the natural man is at enmity with God? That many are called, few are chosen? That the sheep know His voice? Etc.?

One boasting of "systematic theology" in the OP needs me to cite these kindergarten principles?

It wouldn't have mattered, because you would ignore them, just as you ignored by point about limited atonement, as opposed to the universal propitiation you asserted, and I cited the example of the breastplate of the High Priest. Tell me, where was Egypt's stone? Tyre's? Sidon's? They were not represented by the High Priest, because they were not chosen. The atonement is limited to the elect of God.

But you also believe in limited atonement. We just disagree on the limiter.

 

[MB]

I would not bore you with the tedium of proffering the citations you already know so well. Don't bore me with vapid rebuttals.

Did I b ore you? Ahhhhh! only because you you reject the truth for your philosophy.
MB

 

[Aaron]

Did I b ore you? Ahhhhh! only because you you reject the truth for your philosophy.
MB

The stepping stones of Justification

 

[MB]

So let's examine it one piece at a time:


I agree, it is simple to me as well. God saves whom He pleases, because HE IS GOD and we are not. We try and stumble, but God never fails. It ain't rocket science.

It would please God if none were ever lost and you deny He has that desire. You claim a false election for your self in the name of God thinking He only saves the elect. When He died for the entire world. Only Jews are elect and not one Calvinist has ever proved any different.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan
MB

 

[Van]

What? I need to show you where it was said that sons of God are born not by the will of man? That it's by grace that any might have a will to please and to please Him, because the natural man is at enmity with God? That many are called, few are chosen? That the sheep know His voice? Etc.?

One boasting of "systematic theology" in the OP needs me to cite these kindergarten principles?

It wouldn't have mattered, because you would ignore them, just as you ignored by point about limited atonement, as opposed to the universal propitiation you asserted, and I cited the example of the breastplate of the High Priest. Tell me, where was Egypt's stone? Tyre's? Sidon's? They were not represented by the High Priest, because they were not chosen. The atonement is limited to the elect of God.

But you also believe in limited atonement. We just disagree on the limiter.

Yet another defend by absurdity response.
Is the issue that we are sons of God by God's will? Nope, but there it is to muddy the water.
Does any verse say we must be enabled to will to be saved? Nope, but there it is to muddy the water.
Does any verse say the natural man cannot set his mind on some spiritual things? Nope, but....
Or that few are not chosen? Nope

Therefore the opening paragraph is smokescreed, and nothing more.
Did Christ lay down His life as a ransom for all? Of course, so the claim of "limited atonement" is simply a falsehood in support of a falsehood. And note folks, he does not define limited atonement as Christ only dying for the elect, rather than all mankind. But we know what is the claim....

 

[MB]

Nowhere. Where did I claim that those verses said "faith is a gift from God"?


No.
I asked someone their opinion of those verses and suggested a common response while asking if they had a different thought.
You should go back and reread the exchange more carefully so that you might gain insight into opinions other than your own. That was what I did with both Van and Aaron. I listened and then asked honest questions about what they had said to learn more.


What is faith? (Biblically speaking)
How does that fit in with Ephesians 2:1-10?
How does that fit in with the hearts of Acts 2:37 and Acts 16:14?
How does that fit with John 10 and the extended shepherd/sheep analogy?
How does that fit with John 3 and being "born from above"?

The gift is salvation You'd know this if you would just quit the Calvinist thing. But Calvinism tickles your ego.You love to think you are better than others. Makes you feel important and smart. Why nothing make any sense when it is just to easy.huh!
None of these verses pertain to election. You just imagined that they do. They do not say Faith is a Gift. These things are just not there and in eph 2:8-9 Faith is not the Gift Salvation is the Gift. The Bible says everyman has a measure of faith
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If this verse is true it means every man can believe. This is what faith is all about because we all know exactly that we can believe.

MB

 

[Van]

Lets return to our stepping stones that take us across the torrent of confusion:

Number 1 always starts with God. If God did not provide the grace of His revelation, both in what He has made, and the special revelation in His word, we would not even be able to have faith in God, and as Paul referenced, we might have faith in the "unknown god."

1) God reveals Himself to human kind, in two ways.

2) We are exposed to His declaration of the gospel of Christ. Thus without the work of the Holy Spirit, both in the inspired word, and in His leading of witnesses, we would not know what to put our faith in.

3) Some of those exposed to the gospel are unable to understand it, those who are described as the first soil of Matthew 13.

4) Others, understand the message, but do not commit fully, or do not discard their worldly treasures. These are described as the second and third soil of Matthew 13.

5) A "few" understand the message and fully commit, they go "all in" and therefore love God with all their mind, heart and soul.

6) These few are the ones whose faith God credits as righteousness, and are spiritually placed into Christ, thus these "few" are chosen for salvation.

7) Once God gives an individual to Christ, Christ has promised to not cast out, thus our salvation is eternal.

8) Once in Christ, we are justified, made righteous, forgiven, regenerated, made alive, and given the ministry of reconciliation.

The gospel of Christ

 

[Alan Gross]

Almost all Christians would claim to believe we were justified by faith, and perhaps quote Romans 3:28, which says we are justified by faith and not by the works of the Law. If pressed, many Christians would define “works of the law” as the actions we take to conform to the requirements of the Law, rather than what the “law” actually accomplishes, which is to make us aware of our sin and lead us to Christ.

So lets back up and ask the question, justified by whose faith? Does our faith justify us? If we took a poll, would not a large group, perhaps even a majority, say our faith justifies us? But that would be a works based salvation would it not. Ah but you say faith is not a work.

Maybe we should back up again and consider “justified by whom?” Were we justified by what we did or by what Christ did on the cross? The free gift of justification to life was provided by Christ on the cross, Romans 5:18. So it was Christ’s faithfulness, even unto death on the cross, which provided the propitiation for the whole world. So then the question becomes, how did we “receive” that gift or have that gift applied to us individually?

So it would seem, then that our faith in Christ provides access to Christ’s free gift of justification by the grace of God. But does that too miss the mark? I think so. Would not our faith in effect “save us” then and make us the actual architect of our salvation?

So if our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.

The stepping stones of Justification
begin with the 'ungodly'.

"But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is Counted for Righteousness." Romans 4:5

"Faith" must have an Object,
as does "believeth", as we see in,
"believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly".

The "Righteousness" that God Counts
is that Righteousness
that Jesus Christ Lived Perfectly,
to Be The Sacrificial Savior.

THE "UNGODLY" must-have ascertained
their Totally Depraved State
of an Exclusively Sinful Constitution
before The Almighty Trice-Holy Godhead,
as guilty, hopeless, and "ungodly",
to BE GRANTED REPENTANCE
and Faith in Jesus Christ,
as the Object of the Faith GIVEN TO THEM,
who, THEN,
"believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly".

Otherwise, there is never any Repentance
or 'Faith' or 'Belief' that is any more
than 'repeat after me' Easy Believism
that leaves the Totally Depraved
showing evidence of their Total Depravity
with unbelief in God's Word,
the denial of Jesus Christ as The Saviour,
and spiritual deadness
and obliviousness to their Total Depravity.

The stepping stones of Justification
begin with the sinner being Convicted
by The Word of God, for being 'ungodly',
Totally Depraved, with No Ability
to 'have a fantasy', count a bead,
or believe in Santa Claus to Save their soul.

The sinner must Be Enabled to see themselves hopeless, dead, and LOST.

 

[MB]

The stepping stones of Justification
begin with the 'ungodly'.

"But to him that worketh not,
but believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is Counted for Righteousness." Romans 4:5

"Faith" must have an Object,
as does "believeth", as we see in,
"believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly".

The "Righteousness" that God Counts
is that Righteousness
that Jesus Christ Lived Perfectly,
to Be The Sacrificial Savior.

THE "UNGODLY" must-have ascertained
their Totally Depraved State
of an Exclusively Sinful Constitution
before The Almighty Trice-Holy Godhead,
as guilty, hopeless, and "ungodly",
to BE GRANTED REPENTANCE
and Faith in Jesus Christ,
as the Object of the Faith GIVEN TO THEM,
who, THEN,
"believeth on Him that Justifieth the ungodly".

Otherwise, there is never any Repentance
or 'Faith' or 'Belief' that is any more
than 'repeat after me' Easy Believism
that leaves the Totally Depraved
showing evidence of their Total Depravity
with unbelief in God's Word,
the denial of Jesus Christ as The Saviour,
and spiritual deadness
and obliviousness to their Total Depravity.

The stepping stones of Justification
begin with the sinner being Convicted
by The Word of God, for being 'ungodly',
Totally Depraved, with No Ability
to 'have a fantasy', count a bead,
or believe in Santa Claus to Save their soul.

The sinner must Be Enabled to see themselves hopeless, dead, and LOST.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You turn this around making Christ a liar. Since the death burial and resurrectionf we come directly to Christ to be with the Father. Do you see how back wards Calvinism really is?
MB

 

[atpollard]

It would please God if none were ever lost and you deny He has that desire. You claim a false election for your self in the name of God thinking He only saves the elect.

Why are you always happy to tell me what I believe, but never willing to support what you believe?
Frankly, I already KNOW what I believe.

 

[Alan Gross]

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You turn this around making Christ a liar. Since the death burial and resurrectionf we come directly to Christ to be with the Father. Do you see how back wards Calvinism really is?
MB

You're in The Garden of Eden touching The Tree of Everlasting Life, like you are an innocent soul Made in the Image of God.

Eternally Fatal denial of the sin of Adam.

 

[Aaron]

Yet another defend by absurdity response.
Is the issue that we are sons of God by God's will? Nope, but there it is to muddy the water.
Does any verse say we must be enabled to will to be saved? Nope, but there it is to muddy the water.
Does any verse say the natural man cannot set his mind on some spiritual things? Nope, but....
Or that few are not chosen? Nope

Therefore the opening paragraph is smokescreed, and nothing more.
Did Christ lay down His life as a ransom for all? Of course, so the claim of "limited atonement" is simply a falsehood in support of a falsehood. And note folks, he does not define limited atonement as Christ only dying for the elect, rather than all mankind. But we know what is the claim....

Lol. Whatever.

Back to the OP. Our faith does save us, but it is our faith not because we possess it by nature, but because it is given to us through hearing the word of God. And who knows His voice? His sheep.

 

[MB]

Why are you always happy to tell me what I believe, but never willing to support what you believe?
Frankly, I already KNOW what I believe.

Are you ashamed of what you believe? since you don't like hearing it.
MB

 

[Van]

Lol. Whatever.

Back to the OP. Our faith does save us, but it is our faith not because we possess it by nature, but because it is given to us through hearing the word of God. And who knows His voice? His sheep.

Utter nonsense. An absurdity to change the subject.
Did anyone say we possess faith by nature? Nope, so on and on they post falsehood to defend falsehood. Obscene