The subject of Hardenig in its connections

[InTheLight]

Ironic that Biblicist feels he is being ignored. Three of us have asked him the same question a total of eight or nine times now--Who determined the penalty of sinning would be total inability?--and we've been roundly ignored each time. :wavey:

 

[The Biblicist]

Ironic that Biblicist feels he is being ignored. Three of us have asked him the same question a total of eight or nine times now--Who determined the penalty of sinning would be total inability?--and we've been roundly ignored each time. :wavey:

I have answered many times over too!

 

[InTheLight]

I have answered many times over too!

No, you have never said who devised the penalty for sin, only that man initiated sin, which caused the penalty to be invoked. Who was the lawgiver? Who decided total inability would be the result of sin?

 

[Winman]

edit - inflaming...

 

[The Biblicist]

I have answered many times over too!

The rationale behind your assertion is utterly rediculous. Inability is inherent in the definition of what sin is by nature in its relationship to death. Until you understand that you will continue to make the silly and rediculous charge that the doctrine of inability makes God the author of confusion.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, you have never said who devised the penalty for sin, only that man initiated sin, which caused the penalty to be invoked. Who was the lawgiver? Who decided total inability would be the result of sin?

Let me speak slowly and use only small words. Spiritual Inability is inherent in the "law" of sin in its relationship to death. The only way to deny spiritual inability is to deny the law of sin and/or that man is spiritually dead.

It is obvious you neither understand what sin is by nature nor what spiritual death is by nature or we would not be having this discussion at all. iSin and death are inseparable as cause is to consequence. Hence, it is not an issue whether God designed the penalty of sin or not but that the nature of sin inevitable and inseparably results in that penalty. Sin cannot exist apart from death or separation from God because God is holy.

 

[InTheLight]

Let me speak slowly and use only small words.

Ahhh....getting personal now.

Spiritual Inability is inherent in the "law" of sin in its relationship to death.

So the penalty just sprang out of nowhere. It did not have an intelligent designer.

It is obvious you neither understand what sin is by nature nor what spiritual death is by nature or we would not be having this discussion at all.

Ahhh....getting personal now.

Sin and death are inseparable as cause is to consequence. Hence, it is not an issue whether God designed the penalty of sin or not but that sin inevitable results in that penalty.

Ummm... it is an issue, since I (and Winman and Skandelon) are making it an issue. It's an issue because it is a main support of your theology, the "T" in TULIP, and therefore is important to suss out.

Let me ask you this--Is Genesis 2:17 in your Bible?

 

[Skandelon]

First, things seem to be getting a bit snippy and personal. Let's just stick with the topic and try to be cordial. They will know us by our love...

Inability is inherent ...

inherent - existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Who creates all that exists?
Who created this characteristic attribute and made it permanent?
Who made inability to be inherent?

Just admit that you believe God is the one who decided to bind men over to total inability as a result of their sin and you believe that is a just punishment for their sin. Why are you attempting to avoid that? Just own it.

Let's try it this way. Please just answer True or False and provide an explanation if you say False as to why its false.

True or False: Total Inability is a just punishment for sin.
True of False: God determined that punishment.

 

[The Biblicist]

First, things seem to be getting a bit snippy and personal. Let's just stick with the topic and try to be cordial. They will know us by our love...

Hey, I didn't start posting pictures with my name on it!

inherent - existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Who made inability to be inherent?.

Let me try once again! The "law" of sin refers to the inherent nature of sin and how sin always operates. The penlty of sin is inherent in the nature of sin and thus inseparable with sin as cause is to effect. Therefore, God is neither the author of sin or the penalty of sin but God simply declared what sin IS by character and by consequence. To sin is to bring the consequence upon yourself.

Let me approach it another way. God is by nature holy and sin is by nature unholy and so the twain can NEVER MEET. Thus sin by its very nature SEPARATES the sinner from a Holy God. This separation is inseparable from the nature of Sin in connection with a holy God.

Spiritual inaiblity, and total spiritual inability IS the the condition of whatever characterizes sin. The "carnal mind" characterizes sin and thus it is my nature in a state of IRREVERSABLE SEPARATION from a Holy God. The irreversability is found in man's ability to remove the law of sin from himself as he is in the "bondage" of sin. Romans 8:7-8 teaches both total depravity and total inability as sin not only dominates the whole fallen man but man is not able to reverse his sinful disposition.

 

[Winman]

Hey, I didn't start posting pictures with my name on it!

Let me try once again! The "law" of sin refers to the inherent nature of sin and how sin always operates. The penlty of sin is inherent in the nature of sin and thus inseparable with sin as cause is to effect. Therefore, God is neither the author of sin or the penalty of sin but God simply declared what sin IS by character and by consequence. To sin is to bring the consequence upon yourself.

Let me approach it another way. God is by nature holy and sin is by nature unholy and so the twain can NEVER MEET. Thus sin by its very nature SEPARATES the sinner from a Holy God. This separation is inseparable from the nature of Sin in connection with a holy God.

Spiritual inaiblity, and total spiritual inability IS the the condition of whatever characterizes sin. The "carnal mind" characterizes sin and thus it is my nature in a state of IRREVERSABLE SEPARATION from a Holy God. The irreversability is found in man's ability to remove the law of sin from himself as he is in the "bondage" of sin. Romans 8:7-8 teaches both total depravity and total inability as sin not only dominates the whole fallen man but man is not able to reverse his sinful disposition.

Separation and inability are two completely different issues. Separation does not necessarily cause inability, in fact, scripture easily refutes your view.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

We see separation in the garden after Adam and Eve sinned, they hid themselves from God's presence.

Did this cause inability? NO, Adam clearly heard God's voice when God called to him and came to God, else God could not have clothed them with coat of skins he had made.

This scripture shows that sinful man has the ABILITY to respond and come to God.

Scripture does not support your view, it refutes it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Separation and inability are two completely different issues. Separation does not necessarily cause inability, in fact, scripture easily refutes your view.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

We see separation in the garden after Adam and Eve sinned, they hid themselves from God's presence.

Did this cause inability? NO, Adam clearly heard God's voice when God called to him and came to God, else God could not have clothed them with coat of skins he had made.

This scripture shows that sinful mas has the ABILITY to respond and come to God.

Scripture does not support your view, it refutes it.

Inability does not deny the lost condition can recognize God, light, or the things of God. It denies the lost man can properly respond to them. Notice their response to God - pass the buck mentality.

 

[Skandelon]

Hey, I didn't start posting pictures with my name on it!

That statement was directed at all of us, not just you. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'll ask Winman to remove that...

Let me try once again! The "law" of sin refers to the inherent nature of sin and how sin always operates. The penlty of sin is inherent in the nature of sin and thus inseparable with sin as cause is to effect. Therefore, God is neither the author of sin or the penalty of sin but God simply declared what sin IS by character and by consequence. To sin is to bring the consequence upon yourself.

Let me approach it another way. God is by nature holy and sin is by nature unholy and so the twain can NEVER MEET. Thus sin by its very nature SEPARATES the sinner from a Holy God. This separation is inseparable from the nature of Sin in connection with a holy God.

Spiritual inaiblity, and total spiritual inability IS the the condition of whatever characterizes sin. The "carnal mind" characterizes sin and thus it is my nature in a state of IRREVERSABLE SEPARATION from a Holy God. The irreversability is found in man's ability to remove the law of sin from himself as he is in the "bondage" of sin. Romans 8:7-8 teaches both total depravity and total inability as sin not only dominates the whole fallen man but man is not able to reverse his sinful disposition.

You didn't answer my True False questions...

Someone had to design the nature of sin in relation to mankind, unless you just believe it evolved or something? I'm just trying to get you to own your view and you are doing everything in your ability to avoid it...I wonder why...actually I know why. Its what caused me to walk away from Calvinism a decade ago and I don't blame you for not wanting to face it.

 

[Skandelon]

Inability does not deny the lost condition can recognize God, light, or the things of God. It denies the lost man can properly respond to them.

"It denies"...who is it? Some force or power greater than God? Something God didn't create or design? Something that mother nature made? You call "it" inherent but even what is inherent came from something or someone, didn't it?

Did God design it this way or didn't He?

 

[Skandelon]

The "law" of sin refers to the inherent nature of sin and how sin always operates.

Who designed it to operate that way?

I can ask this question in as many ways as you can attempt to dodge it...

 

[Winman]

Inability does not deny the lost condition can recognize God, light, or the things of God. It denies the lost man can properly respond to them. Notice their response to God - pass the buck mentality.

Adam and Eve believed God's promise and were saved. The coat made of skins represents Jesus, the innocent lamb who died for the sins of the world. When God clothes someone, this always represents the righteousness imputed to a believer, as in the story of the prodigal son.

Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

That Adam and Eve believed God's promise is shown in Genesis 4;

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Eve was mistaken, but she believed Cain was the promised Saviour God had promised in Gen 3:15

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eve believed this promise and believed Cain was it's fulfillment. It was after believing this promise that God clothed them with a coat of skins representing the righteousness of God imputed to those who believe.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Note that God clothed Adam and Eve AFTER he had promised a Saviour to them.

Nevertheless, Adam and Eve were both able to hear God and to come to him BEFORE this promise was made to them, showing that sinners have ABILITY.

 

[The Biblicist]

Who designed it to operate that way?

I can ask this question in as many ways as you can attempt to dodge it...

.
No one designed sin to operate that way. Sin IS that way by nature. Sin IS the opposite of righteouness and Sin IS present wherever righteousness is absent. By determing what is righteous also determines what is sin as sin is the absence of, the opposite of righteousness.

The author of sin is the creature who thinks and acts WITHOUT righteousness as his motive and action. The penalty of sin is contained within the nature of sin -separation from righteousness, holiness, life, goodness, etc.

 

[Skandelon]

.
No one designed sin to operate that way. Sin IS that way by nature.

Who or what created or designed the nature of sin to be such that it would make men total unable to respond even to God's appeals? Is that the one nature God didn't determine? Is that the one thing in God's creation that He didn't design or have anything to do with?

 

[Skandelon]

You say 'by nature' as if God didn't create the nature of all that exists...you seem to just be avoiding the inevitable conclusion, don't you think?

 

[The Biblicist]

Who or what created or designed the nature of sin to be such that it would make men total unable to respond even to God's appeals? Is that the one nature God didn't determine? Is that the one thing in God's creation that He didn't design or have anything to do with?

Sin did! Sin is opposition, separation, from righteousness and God is righteous and God is the author of life and separation from life is death. The fallen man is under the law of sin that separates him from all that is righteous, good, and life - that is total depravity so that there is "NONE GOOD....NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, no not one." Inability lies inherentlly in whatever is bound by sin, in bondage to sin, controlled by sin as man has no innate power to remove or reverse the consequences of sin.

 

[The Biblicist]

You say 'by nature' as if God didn't create the nature of all that exists...you seem to just be avoiding the inevitable conclusion, don't you think?

The nature of Sin is created when righteousnes is defined. The act of sin creates the presence of sin as sin is any motive pursuant to actions that is without righteousness.