The T In The TULIP Doctrine

"It is because of these two Divinely implanted entities that God can begin to work on the sinner before their regeneration." - Ray Berrian

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" - Paul

It is important to understand that the Gospel is not a propostion, or offer, but a proclamation. I don't understand the idea that God is unfair in election. The Bible says that He looked down and they were all gone astray. We did NOT deserve salvation anyway, so the argument that God is unfair in only bestowing it on some and not others does not even begin to make sense! Look at it this way...All my friends turn their backs on me, and they want nothing to do with me. I decide I'll still repair the relationship with one of my friends just because I want to show mercy. Does that make me unfair since the others STILL want nothing to do with me??? I don't think so, and you need to get your facts straight.

 

Both Arminians and Calvinists can agree that man is totally depraved.

Both agree that the supernatural "Drawing power" of God allows man to "come" to choose life.

THe "difference" is that the Arminian model is
"God draws ALL men" unto Himself and does not extend that drawing Power to "irresistable" drawing.

For Calvinism "God draws the arbitrarily selected Few of Matt 7 and does so irresistably. He first makes them born-again and then makes them accept Christ.".

But both agree that man is totally depraved as the starting condition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

But this is a direct contradiction of Scripture that says "All that the Father gives will come to me" (John 6:37). This is why your position is incompatible with Scripture.

Christ is clear: No one can come unless they are given and all who are given will certainly come. There is no third category of given/drawn and not coming.

 

Hmm let's see - John 12:32
"I will draw ALL men unto Me and ALL those Drawn WILL be Saved" ... Not there!

Does it even say "I will Draw ALL men unto Me and ALL that I draw are GIVEN to me by the Father"?? ... nope that is not there either.

But you say "There is no third category of drawn and not coming".

How about when we observe that He Draws all - and that He "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" - Then we notice that "all" are not saved - NOR does scripture ever say "All men are saved" - but it DOES say "I will draw ALL men". It does not say "All that I draw will be given to Me by the Father".

Still the point is a good one - God's working, drawing and yet resisting God's own predetermined purpose? Lets see ...

NOT ONLy did He DRAW them to himself HE CAME TO them in Person saying "Come unto ME all who are weary and heavy ladened" ... "He Came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

He is "DECLARING to all men EVERYWHERE that they should repent" Acts 17:30

In fact what it says is Luke 7:30 "They REJECTED God's PURPOSE for them" and it goes even further - showing the effort, the drawing the enticing with "effort" on God's Part of those who REJECT God's purpose for them "We played the flute FOR YOU and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not weep". 7:32

More than this -- "OH how OFTEN I WANTED to gether YOUR children... and YOU were UNWILLING"
Matt 23:37

"Cast AWAY from you your transgressions...OH WHY will you die? I have NO pleasures in the death of the wicked - REPENT and LIVE" Ezek 18 (and 33:11)

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 08, 2002, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

So read the context of John 6 and John 12 and this is simple. Read the commentaries and you won't even have to think hard about it. My friend, you cannot simply ignore Scripture you don't like. It won't work. It creates teh theology that you have ... disjointed, inconsistent, and unable to answer the questions.

John 12 is clearly talking about drawing all kinds of men, those whom he has chosen for salvation rather than simply the Jews. Remember earlier in the chapter, the Greeks wanted to come and see Jesus yet his ministry was primarily with the Jews. Yet he says that when he is lifted up, he will draw all men, including teh Greeks, to himself. Do a search and you will find some discussion on this topic that will clear it up.

The rest of your post is pretty disjointed. It is a stringing together of out of context texts to try to make a point that doesn't really exist. Deal with them in context of Scripture and theology and you will have a better chance. Of course, if you do that you will agree with Jesus, and Paul, and Peter, and John, and those who share their positions through church history. Unfortunately, they picked up the name of a man in the 16th century and became associated with him instead of with Scripture.

 

Pastory Larry - you suggest that when we read in John 12 "I will draw ALL /Men/People/MANKIND unto me" that we should read into it "ALL kinds of MAnkind"? Are you claiming that we can freely substitute "ALL KINDS" whenever we read "ALL MEN/People/Mankind"?

It simply does not work in John 12 - or any other part of scripture.

He is declaring to "ALL KINDS Of MEN" everywhere that they should repent??

Here we see God DOES have a purpose for these men AND THEY REJECT it. That should not even EXIST in the Calvinist system that denies that God has any concern/plan/Purpose for them AT ALL - except to burn them in hell.

I congratulate you for avoiding that devastating text Larry.

Here Christ speaks to the Chosen People, the Holy nation, the People called out for God's Own Possession - and states HIS WILL - and that it is thwarted because "YOU were Unwilling" - INSTEAD of saying "I WAS UNWILLING to save you and I HAD no concern for those whom I have not saved" Christ makes a pointed Arminian statement.

Wise of you to avoid that devastating passage of scripture Larry. I really don't blame you given your acceptance of the model of Calvinism.

Here God explicitly denies the point of Calvinism in that He is calling out to the lost - the wicked and apparently in exasperated language - denies that He has "No concern for the perishing" as Calvinism wants to claim. Truly another devastating point of scripture - one to be avoided if possible if you hold to Calvinism.

I see your advantage in not discussing it.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 08, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

You appear very unfamiliar with the issues. First, get out your Greek text and read it. It will answer your question. In case you don't have it, let me tell you waht it says: "I will draw all to myself." All what? It doesn't specify. On the basis of comparing texts, we find out what he means since he cannot contradict himself. Read Morris commentary on John for a good explanation of this. I do think that "all" can mean all without exception if "draw" is different than the efficacious drawing in John 6. It is a possibility but not likely. In any case, you cannot simply ignore John 6. It is in your Bible; you have to deal with it.

"All" (pantos, pas, etc) has a wide semantic domain. You must interpret it in context. All of us agree that "all" does not always mean all without exception. Even you agree with that. God does command all men everywhere to repent. Most choose not to repent of their own free will.

God has declared his purpose from the beginning and it will stand (unless you want to deny Isaiah 46). However, God's decreed purpose and his desired purpose are not always the same. You would have finite man contraverting the infinite God. My God is simply bigger than that. He does not conform to me; he demands that I conform to him.

Is this the same arminian statement that he makes in Matt 13:13-15: 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; 15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Notice how Christ expressly says that he is using parables so that they would not hear and return and be healed. He is quoting Isa 6 and referencing an intentional obfuscation of the message. You have a very selective use of Scripture.

I have never seen any calvinist say that God has no concern for the wicked or the lost. You are makign that up to bolster your point. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is not gleeful over sin.

So as you can see, I have not avoided any Scripture at all. I don't need to. These passages have been long answered in works much more in depth than I can offer here. If you are serious about finding answers to these questions, then I recommend you study them. If you are not serious, then don't. However, I find it very disgusting to see positions misrepresented. You have been corrected. You have been encouraged to use the search engine to find out where these topics have been discussed so that you can catch up on the ground that has already been covered. So far you have chosen not to do that apparently. It is unfortunate.

However my experience in many cases is that people are not interested in discussing; they are interested in demagoging. So far, you have not put forth one solid piece of evidence for your position (at least that I have seen). You have not used one verse of Scripture that I disagree with. I encourage you to participate, but one a sound basis of arguing against actual positions that we hold.

Lastly, putting on my moderator hat, your smart aleck comments about "being wise to avoid certain passages" are out of place in this civil discussion. If you wish to particpate in that kind of rhetoric, take it elsewhere. Here, we try to keep this (sometimes heated) discussion on a gentlemanly (or gentlewomanly) level as much as possible. People who do not do that usually don't last long.