the "T" of the TULIP

[George Antonios]

And at best I am only a two point Calvinist, T _ _ _ P

As a former Calvinist (2-3 years) I reject all 5 points.

But one thing I will say, the 5 points are logically consistent.

If you believe the T, you must logically derive the U and the I and the P
[not necessarily the L, as is often claimed, and that historically came much later precisely for that reason].

Watch from 40:52

 

[AustinC]

yes

No

Righteousness does not overcome sin’s wages of death. Blood must be spilt.

Since all have sinned, all must die, or someone must die for all. I believe we sinned “in Adam”, but we also sin personally. Repentance, while possible without Christ’s sacrifice, does nothing to remove the guilt.

Jesus did not sin, so He didn’t have to pay for His own sin, and was able to pay for ours with His death.

Total inability should refer to our inability to save ourselves, which is true, but not to some inability to respond to our Savior, which is false.

.

 

[AustinC]

yes

No

Righteousness does not overcome sin’s wages of death. Blood must be spilt.

Since all have sinned, all must die, or someone must die for all. I believe we sinned “in Adam”, but we also sin personally. Repentance, while possible without Christ’s sacrifice, does nothing to remove the guilt.

Jesus did not sin, so He didn’t have to pay for His own sin, and was able to pay for ours with His death.

Total inability should refer to our inability to save ourselves, which is true, but not to some inability to respond to our Savior, which is false.

Can the dead respond before they are made alive?

 

[Derf B]

Can the dead respond before they are made alive?

Can the dead breathe?


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[Derf B]

Jer. 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it?"

Just looking at this verse for the moment, noticing you emboldened it, why do you think it helps your argument?

The context tells us that it is referring to a decision whether to trust another human instead of God, and that we can’t know another’s heart in order to trust him.

Paul tells us we can know our own heart:
1 Corinthians 2:11a (KJV) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Does anyone take the position that the natural man is not totally separated from God? If you believe he is not totally separated, is he partially separated or not separated at all? Please provide scripture to validate you position.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Can the dead breathe?


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Yes. [1Ti 5:6 KJV] 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

 

[George Antonios]

Does anyone take the position that the natural man is not totally separated from God? If you believe he is not totally separated, is he partially separated or not separated at all? Please provide scripture to validate you position.

It depends. The trick of Calvinism is that it latches on to a certain general truth and pushes that truth to an unbiblical extreme.

Is the lost man totally separated from God? Ask Paul:

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For IN HIM we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

The verses are evidently about the lost.

 

[MB]

Does anyone take the position that the natural man is not totally separated from God? If you believe he is not totally separated, is he partially separated or not separated at all? Please provide scripture to validate you position.

We are only separated from God in Hell. Was Adam separated from God after he sinned? No! How about Cain was he separated from God. No! They both spoke with God after they sinned and they heard God speak to them. Why weren't they dead in there trespasses? Why were they still spiritually alive and still speaking with God? If all men are dead spiritually no body could ever be saved. That is unless you are like Dave G who claims he was saved before the foundation of the world.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

We are only separated from God in Hell. Was Adam separated from God after he sinned? No! How about Cain was he separated from God. No! They both spoke with God after they sinned and they heard God speak to them. Why weren't they dead in there trespasses? Why were they still spiritually alive and still speaking with God? If all men are dead spiritually no body could ever be saved. That is unless you are like Dave G who claims he was saved before the foundation of the world.
MB

Are we born in a state of sin or grace then?

 

[MB]

Are we born in a state of sin or grace then?

The Bible says we are born in sin. It does not say we are born in a state of sin. Nor does it say we are born sinners.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Just looking at this verse for the moment, noticing you emboldened it, why do you think it helps your argument?

I emboldened all of the verses that were referenced in the summary paragraph at the top to make it easir to spot the referenced verse from among the list of verses. That was the only reason it was bold.

 

[AustinC]

Can the dead breathe?


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Nope. Neither can the spiritually dead.
So, tell us how a dead man will create the faith necessary to believe.

 

[37818]

As a former Calvinist (2-3 years) I reject all 5 points.

But one thing I will say, the 5 points are logically consistent.

If you believe the T, you must logically derive the U and the I and the P
[not necessarily the L, as is often claimed, and that historically came much later precisely for that reason].

Watch from 40:52

I do not have time to watch it now.
I believe the election is whole by God, conditional being man cannot deserve being elect. Unmerited.
The atonement is by which Christ is Lord of both the lost, being their Judge, and the saved securing their salvation being their Savior. God's grace resisted by the lost, accepted by His elect.

 

[Van]

Can a person, outside of God's gracious redemption, find favor and be counted righteous?

If so then, salvation is a reward for the righteous and is therefore merit based.

Do you never stop deliberately misrepresenting scripture? Just read Genesis 6:8-9.

 

[AustinC]

We are only separated from God in Hell. Was Adam separated from God after he sinned? No! How about Cain was he separated from God. No! They both spoke with God after they sinned and they heard God speak to them. Why weren't they dead in there trespasses? Why were they still spiritually alive and still speaking with God? If all men are dead spiritually no body could ever be saved. That is unless you are like Dave G who claims he was saved before the foundation of the world.
MB

Adam and Cain were indeed dead in their trespasses and sins.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

It is only by God's grace that Adam and Eve were atoned of their sins.

In Job we see God speaking to Satan, an openly hostile sinner and rebel against God. God communicates with rebellious humans, but some he does not call and make alive with Christ.

 

[Van]

Which "actual scripture" says that the "action and attitude" of Noah found favor with God?

"Total Spiritual Inability, if true would preclude Noah from pleasing God."

• If you begin with a false premise ...

"Therefore, once again, the "T" of the Tulip has been shown to be fiction."

• ... you reach a false conclusion.

Man is not capable of coming to God in His own strength and wisdom ("Total Inability") because every part of a human being has been corrupted by sin in some way ("Total Depravity").

Yet another denial of Genesis 6:8-9.

There is no biblical support for claiming Noah was predestined to be righteous, so he would find favor. The unvarnished truth is he found favor with the Lord, so according to actual scripture, it was his action and attitude that found favor with the Lord, and not the other way around.

Total Spiritual Inability, if true would preclude Noah from pleasing God.

Therefore, once again, the "T" of the Tulip has been shown to be fiction.

 

[AustinC]

Do you never stop deliberately misrepresenting scripture? Just read Genesis 6:8-9.

How do these verse make your point?

I'm waiting to find out how the spiritually dead can make themselves spiritually alive, will themselves to have faith, and then have that faith counted as righteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible says we are born in sin. It does not say we are born in a state of sin. Nor does it say we are born sinners.
MB

We are the children of the Devil until we are saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

How do these verse make your point?

I'm waiting to find out how the spiritually dead can make themselves spiritually alive, will themselves to have faith, and then have that faith counted as righteousness.

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