the "T" of the TULIP

[Van]

How do these verse make your point?

I'm waiting to find out how the spiritually dead can make themselves spiritually alive, will themselves to have faith, and then have that faith counted as righteousness.

I am waiting for you to acknowledge your view is unbiblical.
Did anyone say we make ourselves alive? Nope so yet again this Calvinist makes false charges to hide truth.
Total Spiritual Inability falsely claims lost people will not seek God, will not "will to be saved" and so forth. Romans 9:16 shows total spiritual inability to be false doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am waiting for you to acknowledge your view is unbiblical.
Did anyone say we make ourselves alive? Nope so yet again this Calvinist makes false charges to hide truth.
Total Spiritual Inability falsely claims lost people will not seek God, will not "will to be saved" and so forth. Romans 9:16 shows total spiritual inability to be false doctrine.

Nope, we hold that sinners will still seek their manmade gods, but the Lord Himself will have to save them in their sins!

 

[Derf B]

Nope. Neither can the spiritually dead.
So, tell us how a dead man will create the faith necessary to believe.

I think you’re confused. Those that don’t breathe are physically dead.

I’m pretty sure you would have to agree that in your vocabulary “spiritually dead” people are physically alive, and can still be recipients of God’s mercies.

Thus they breathe.


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[Van]

Nope, we hold that sinners will still seek their manmade gods, but the Lord Himself will have to save them in their sins!

So the kingdom in view in Matthew 23:13 is of a man-made god? Got it. Thanks...

 

[Derf B]

Yes. [1Ti 5:6 KJV] 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

So if she were to stop living in pleasure, then she would no longer be “dead while she live there”, right?

So Paul here, in the midst of admonishing Timothy, also is telling Timothy how to admonish the widows that are not spending their time profitably. Don’t you think that means they need to repent? See vs 1 & 2.

If these are spiritually dead, it looks like they became such after believing in Christ. There goes the “P”, according to your view.

 

[Derf B]

I emboldened all of the verses that were referenced in the summary paragraph at the top to make it easir to spot the referenced verse from among the list of verses. That was the only reason it was bold.

Ok. I saw some bold and some not, and assumed some significance.

Nevertheless, what help does that verse provide?

 

[atpollard]

Yet another denial of Genesis 6:8-9.

1. Where was my first denial of Genesis 6:8-9 (since this is "another")?
2. I have denied nothing in scripture, I only question what is not in scripture that you pretend is written in it.

There is no biblical support for claiming Noah was predestined to be righteous, so he would find favor.

I never said there was, so this is a non sequitur.

The unvarnished truth is he found favor with the Lord, so according to actual scripture, it was his action and attitude that found favor with the Lord, and not the other way around.

Then I repeat my request for the scripture where it actually SAYS that "his action and attitude that found favor with the Lord".
You have not provided it and Genesis 6:8-9 does not say that.
[Genesis 6:8-9 NKJV] 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Total Spiritual Inability, if true would preclude Noah from pleasing God.
Therefore, once again, the "T" of the Tulip has been shown to be fiction.

To repeat, if you start with FALSE assumptions, you get FALSE conclusions and your redefining of "Total Inability" is a perfect example.


Just as a point of interest, here are some other places that the EXACT SAME WORD is used ...

• [Gen 6:9 KJV] 9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect[H8549] in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.
• [Exo 12:5 KJV] 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish,[H8549] a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats:
• [Lev 3:9 KJV] 9 And he shall offer of the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire unto the LORD; the fat thereof, [and] the whole[H8549] rump, it shall he take off hard by the backbone; and the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that [is] upon the inwards,

Maybe we need to rethink just how "absolutely perfect" Noah really was to be "an acceptable offering" to God.

 

[Dave G]

In the words of my Lord, it is written again:

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The last thing that I wish to do is to blaspheme my Heavenly Father and His precious Son...
The author and finisher of my faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

You may feel like that is what I am doing when I express my beliefs, but I can assure you that it is the farthest thing from my mind.

You should care more about God being slandered by the Calvinistic heresy.

George,

" A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." ( Titus 3:10-11 ).

If you think "Calvinism" is heresy ( as you've indicated in a prior post ), then instead of mocking those of us who believe that salvation is entirely of God, start to finish, may I suggest simply doing as the above says?
Reject us...don't make fun of us.
Don't mock us, don't belittle us and don't do anything other than attempt to lovingly correct us, OK?

I for one would appreciate it very much.
I also cannot speak for others on this board who believe as I do ( and suffer ( Philippians 1:29 ) under the label of "Calvinist" ), but I can promise you one thing...

I will never mock or belittle you as a person.
But I will reserve the right to disagree with you based on what I see and understand from the Scriptures, and I feel that I can do so without resorting to anything ungodly in the process.

I don't have any trouble telling you that I think that you are in error;
But I will not throw out the Lord's commands regarding conduct, just so I can get in the last word or try and make people think that you're a lesser man than I am.




May God bless you much in your continued studies, sir, and may He be pleased to grant you many good gifts in the days and years to come.

 

[MB]

Adam and Cain were indeed dead in their trespasses and sins.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

It is only by God's grace that Adam and Eve were atoned of their sins.

In Job we see God speaking to Satan, an openly hostile sinner and rebel against God. God communicates with rebellious humans, but some he does not call and make alive with Christ.

This is all double speak God tells Adam and Eve they will die if they eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They don't die spiritually or physcially but are atoned for by the blood of animals which does not work and live on for hundreds of years after ward. Even Cain there off spring lived on and he wasn't atoned for Yet He and God had a conversation after he killed Able. Sounds to me like you have no idea of what you are talking about.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Can the dead breathe?

Spiritually dead people, who reject God's words and love their sin to the point that they are dead in their affections towards God, can and do breathe every day.

 

[atpollard]

Ok. I saw some bold and some not, and assumed some significance.

Nevertheless, what help does that verse provide?

Fair question.
Here is the original quote from CARM (located in the OP):

The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness because the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) and from within his heart flows all sorts of evil (Mark 7:21-23). He is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:15), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14). This is why he cannot come to Christ (John 6:44; John 6:65) - CARM

The basic premise is "The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness" and everything that follows is logical and Biblical support for WHY the unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness. That is why the word "because" immediately appears after the premise.

The FIRST reason was "because the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful" and is supported by the scripture found at (Jeremiah 17:9). So let's look at that verse:

Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it?"​

CARM claims "the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful" and Jeremiah wrote "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick". I think I would say that Jeremiah supports the claim of CARM concerning the basic human heart.

Ultimately, it comes down to a belief that God has to do something to fix what is so messed up in mankind that we have no hope of fixing it ourselves. That means God has to make the first move and draw a filthy child into His embrace to teach us how to love Him. That's what is at the core of the "Doctrines of Grace".

 

[Derf B]

Fair question.
Here is the original quote from CARM (located in the OP):

The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness because the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9) and from within his heart flows all sorts of evil (Mark 7:21-23). He is a slave of sin (Romans 6:20), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:15), and cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14). This is why he cannot come to Christ (John 6:44; John 6:65) - CARM

The basic premise is "The unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness" and everything that follows is logical and Biblical support for WHY the unbeliever will never freely choose God in his sinfulness. That is why the word "because" immediately appears after the premise.

The FIRST reason was "because the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful" and is supported by the scripture found at (Jeremiah 17:9). So let's look at that verse:

Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it?"​

CARM claims "the heart of the unbeliever is wicked and deceitful" and Jeremiah wrote "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick". I think I would say that Jeremiah supports the claim of CARM concerning the basic human heart.

Ultimately, it comes down to a belief that God has to do something to fix what is so messed up in mankind that we have no hope of fixing it ourselves. That means God has to make the first move and draw a filthy child into His embrace to teach us how to love Him. That's what is at the core of the "Doctrines of Grace".

God did do something. He sent Jesus Christ, who lived a righteous life and died for our sins. Are you saying that’s not enough to save us? That we need something more than Christ and Him crucified to be preached to us?

Did you go read the context of Jeremiah 17? It does not match the description CARM gave. It doesn’t say the unbeliever can never believe. It says that you and I can’t trust in our fellow man to save us, which we both agree with.


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[Dave G]

So you were saved before you were born. Even before you existed.

Romans 8:28-30.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
Galatians 4:1-6.
Revelation 13:8.
Revelation 17:8.

You weren't born in sin. Like the rest of us

Yes, I was...

Why do you think the Lord Jesus Christ came and died to save sinners?
Because I'm probably one of the worst there is;
Born in it, wallowed in it ( even as a believer ), and graciously saved by a loving friend that sticks closer than a brother.

Like David, I ( and all of the "whosoever believeth:" ) was estranged from the womb ( Psalms 58:3 ), and was born in sin...
Speaking lies every time I cried and my mother thought I'd dirtied my diaper...
When all I wanted was attention.

That's amazing!
have you ever taken LSD?

No I have not.

But I've done many things not unlike it, even as a believer.
You know what I found out later, after the shame of it began to wear off?

" There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that [he], to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged." ( Luke 7:41-43 ).

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Is the lost man totally separated from God? Ask Paul:

Taking my question in post #126 in context, the question was addressed to participates in this forum. Therefore I want to know your response, supported by scripture. You are using Calvinism as a strawman. Why can't you stand your ground?

 

[AustinC]

What do you think of post # 131

Post 131:

The Bible says we are born in sin. It does not say we are born in a state of sin. Nor does it say we are born sinners.
MB

I would need to know what MB means by "born in sin." Is sin kind of like air into which the baby is born? What nuance is MB attempting to make so that he can declare newborns to be holy and righteous vessels that are not under the curse of sin?

Of course it comes off as a form of Pelagian theology, but MB has denied Pelagian theology in the past.

@MB, what do you say for yourself?

 

[AustinC]

I am waiting for you to acknowledge your view is unbiblical.
Did anyone say we make ourselves alive? Nope so yet again this Calvinist makes false charges to hide truth.
Total Spiritual Inability falsely claims lost people will not seek God, will not "will to be saved" and so forth. Romans 9:16 shows total spiritual inability to be false doctrine.

Tell me how my reading of Ephesians 2:1-9 is umbiblical.
Tell me how those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are capable of having faith before they are made alive with Christ. Show me, in this passage, how you come to that conclusion.

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[AustinC]

I think you’re confused. Those that don’t breathe are physically dead.

I’m pretty sure you would have to agree that in your vocabulary “spiritually dead” people are physically alive, and can still be recipients of God’s mercies.

Thus they breathe.


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Those who don't breathe in the Spirit of God are spiritually dead.

Tell me how we were made alive with Christ, if God didn't do it. Share your exegesis of Ephesians 2:1-9 for me.

 

[AustinC]

This is all double speak God tells Adam and Eve they will die if they eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They don't die spiritually or physcially but are atoned for by the blood of animals which does not work and live on for hundreds of years after ward. Even Cain there off spring lived on and he wasn't atoned for Yet He and God had a conversation after he killed Able. Sounds to me like you have no idea of what you are talking about.
MB

I didn't stutter. No double-speak.

 

[Derf B]

Those who don't breathe in the Spirit of God are spiritually dead.

Tell me how we were made alive with Christ, if God didn't do it. Share your exegesis of Ephesians 2:1-9 for me.

I’m not saying God doesn’t make us alive in Christ (though not yet WITH Christ). I’m saying He does that through the death of Christ to pay for our sins, and not through any other means. God doesn’t save us through an unknown mechanism, but through a known mechanism—Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

You propose a different means of salvation.


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[Yeshua1]

Post 131:

I would need to know what MB means by "born in sin." Is sin kind of like air into which the baby is born? What nuance is MB attempting to make so that he can declare newborns to be holy and righteous vessels that are not under the curse of sin?

Of course it comes off as a form of Pelagian theology, but MB has denied Pelagian theology in the past.

@MB, what do you say for yourself?

If none of us were affected by the Fall, why the need for the Virgin Birth even?