the "T" of the TULIP

[Yeshua1]

This is all double speak God tells Adam and Eve they will die if they eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They don't die spiritually or physcially but are atoned for by the blood of animals which does not work and live on for hundreds of years after ward. Even Cain there off spring lived on and he wasn't atoned for Yet He and God had a conversation after he killed Able. Sounds to me like you have no idea of what you are talking about.
MB

Adam died spiritually right then and there, and now under the curse of sin physically started to die!

 

[atpollard]

Did you go read the context of Jeremiah 17?

Does the context change the fact that human hearts are corrupt and not to be trusted? If not then it supports the only fact that it was being asked to support.

 

[atpollard]

That we need something more than Christ and Him crucified to be preached to us?

Quite frankly, YES.
What percentage of the unsaved in the United States would you estimate know that Jesus Christ died for their sins? I would guess close to 100%. So it seems clear to me that just hearing the facts is not enough.

 

[Dave G]

God doesn’t save us through an unknown mechanism, but through a known mechanism—Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Amen.

You propose a different means of salvation.

What would that means be, that is different than what you see in the Bible, Derf?

Question:
According to the totality of the Scriptures that you have studied thus far,
Does God save apart from anything a man or woman wishes, or do our wishes determine His?

 

[Van]

1. Where was my first denial of Genesis 6:8-9 (since this is "another")?
2. I have denied nothing in scripture, I only question what is not in scripture that you pretend is written in it.

SNIP

Repeating denials of scripture, i.e. Noah found favor with God, yet was supposedly hating God at all time, is twaddle.

The "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine, a fiction created by men, not found in scripture.

 

[Van]

Tell me how my reading of Ephesians 2:1-9 is umbiblical.
Tell me how those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are capable of having faith before they are made alive with Christ. Show me, in this passage, how you come to that conclusion.

Ephesians 2:1-9 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Non-stolp denial of scripture after scripture is all the Calvinists can offer. They redefine being spiritually dead, as resulting in total spiritual inability. Hogwash.

They deny we are made alive, after God puts us spiritually into Christ, thus made alive together with Christ. No, they have folks being made alive while not in Christ. Hogwash.

And of course, they deny by grace we have been saved on the basis of faith, because their false doctrine is we are saved then given (instilled via irresistible grace) faith. Hogwash

 

[atpollard]

Repeating denials of scripture

Nope.

Noah found favor with God

Yup.

yet was supposedly hating God at all time

Nope.

twaddle

You’re the resident expert on “twaddle”.

The "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine, a fiction created by men, not found in scripture.

You have no clue what the doctrine of the “T” of TULIP means.
Stick to presenting your own views because you are making a hatchet job of explaining Calvinism.

 

[atpollard]

they deny by grace we have been saved on the basis of faith

[Eph 2:8 NKJV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
​

Why can you remember the first half of that verse so clearly, but never seem to be able to quote the second half? Is it because you like to claim that faith IS of ourselves and is NOT the gift of God?

 

[Van]

Nope.
SNIP
You have no clue what the doctrine of the “T” of TULIP means.
Stick to presenting your own views because you are making a hatchet job of explaining Calvinism.

This from the Calvinist who misrepresents total spiritual inability as only meaning humans cannot save themselves. Hogwash
Pay no attention to those who deny Calvinist doctrine, to defend it.

 

[Van]

[Eph 2:8 NKJV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
​

Why can you remember the first half of that verse so clearly, but never seem to be able to quote the second half? Is it because you like to claim that faith IS of ourselves and is NOT the gift of God?

The fiction of the gift of faith has been shown to be bogus over and over, yet this Calvinist continues to deny the obvious. How can someone be saved through or on the basis of faith, before they have faith? No answer will be forthcoming.

 

[Dave G]

How can someone be saved through or on the basis of faith, before they have faith?

Because salvation itself is not on the basis of faith.
True faith is something that is miraculous and enduring...
even in the face of certain death.

It is definitely not something that we as believers could ever possess apart from God.

No answer will be forthcoming.

Faith does not save...
It's the evidence of it ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

Once again, God gets all the glory for believers being His work ( Ephesians 2:10 ) and we as men have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace, Van.

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:4-7 ).

 

[percho]

There is no biblical support for claiming Noah was predestined to be righteous, so he would find favor. The unvarnished truth is he found favor with the Lord, so according to actual scripture, it was his action and attitude that found favor with the Lord, and not the other way around.

Total Spiritual Inability, if true would preclude Noah from pleasing God.

Therefore, once again, the "T" of the Tulip has been shown to be fiction.

What about because it was foreordained before the foundation of the world that the Christ would shed his precious life's blood for the purpose of redemption from the wages of sin, God chose and predestined in the Christ, the redeemer, x number of souls to be a kind of first fruit of his creation, through adoption of sons, after all scripture has concluded all under sin Gal 3:22 including Noah.
Is that adoption of sons the same as the adoption to wit the redemption of the body of Rom 8:23 work backward in Rom 8 is that the manifestation of the sons of God, work backward, is that the hope of 8:20 ??



Did Christ's blood need to be shed in order for Abraham's sins to be forgiven? What about Noah?

What redeems them from death brought forth by their sins?

I had more to ask but have to be out a while.

 

[atpollard]

Hogwash

Shall we let others define Total Inability:

• Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a Christian theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It teaches that, as a consequence of man's fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. [wikipedia]

• Total Depravity is the doctrine that fallen man is completely touched by sin and that he is completely a sinner. He is not as bad as he could be, but in all areas of his being, body, soul, spirit, mind, emotions, etc., he is touched by sin. In that sense, he is totally depraved. Because man is depraved, nothing good can come out of him (Rom. 3:10-12), and God must account the righteousness of Christ to him. This righteousness is obtainable only through faith in Christ and what He did on the cross. [CARM]

• THE DOCTRINE OF TOTAL INABILITY: Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel - he needs the Spirit of God to cause him to be born again. [Grace Fellowship Church]

• Enslavement to sin characterizes all those who have not yet been transformed by God’s saving grace, and only the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, can set people free to do what is pleasing to the Lord (see John 8:36). This complete enslavement to sin is what we are really talking about when we speak of total depravity. The consequence of Adam’s fall is not merely that it has become more difficult to do what is truly good or that we have been weakened while still retaining some ability to choose to please God. No, the fall has rendered us unable to respond to our Creator in trust, love, and obedience. [Ligonier Ministries]

• Although total depravity does not mean that all men will display evil to the fullest extent possible, or that one man may never be good relative to another, or “in the right” when it comes to a particular situation; yet it does mean that no man can ever do anything whatsoever that is completely acceptable in the sight of God. The very best acts of fallen man are tainted and imperfect, and thus loathsome before the altogether holy God of creation. Basically, the doctrine of total depravity, in a calvinistic soteriology, intends two things: first, that no act of man is ultimately good or perfectly acceptable to God; and second, that man is so corrupted by sin, that he is utterly unable to contribute anything to his regeneration, even the simplest act of seeking God, believing in him, or coming to him. [monergism.com]
  

Shall I provide explanations on the T of TULIP from more Calvinist sources and encyclopedic references? Your definition of the “T” of TULIP disagrees with all reliable Calvinist references, so either YOU know what Calvinists believe and every Calvinist has it wrong, or WE know what we believe and you have misunderstood the doctrines of TULIP.

 

[atpollard]

The fiction of the gift of faith has been shown to be bogus over and over

[Eph 2:8 NKJV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,​

God didn’t get the memo, so until He changes His Word, I will just stick with what Paul wrote.

 

[AustinC]

I’m not saying God doesn’t make us alive in Christ (though not yet WITH Christ). I’m saying He does that through the death of Christ to pay for our sins, and not through any other means. God doesn’t save us through an unknown mechanism, but through a known mechanism—Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

You propose a different means of salvation.


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Ephesians 2:4-5 says:
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—"

Notice what Paul says.
"Even when we were dead in our trespasses." God "made us alive together with Christ."

What is that mechanism, other than God's unmerited grace?

 

[AustinC]

Non-stolp denial of scripture after scripture is all the Calvinists can offer. They redefine being spiritually dead, as resulting in total spiritual inability. Hogwash.

They deny we are made alive, after God puts us spiritually into Christ, thus made alive together with Christ. No, they have folks being made alive while not in Christ. Hogwash.

And of course, they deny by grace we have been saved on the basis of faith, because their false doctrine is we are saved then given (instilled via irresistible grace) faith. Hogwash

Please show me how spiritually dead equals spiritual ability.

 

[AustinC]

I’m not saying God doesn’t make us alive in Christ (though not yet WITH Christ). I’m saying He does that through the death of Christ to pay for our sins, and not through any other means. God doesn’t save us through an unknown mechanism, but through a known mechanism—Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

You propose a different means of salvation.


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By your statement we would conclude that by the death of Christ all human sins were entirely paid for. Thus, we would also conclude that Jesus death made all people alive with Christ.

Do you notice that in your narrative, belief is inconsequential.

Let's take a look, once again at our verses in Ephesians 2:4-9. Notice the mechanism.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Notice that the mechanism that God declares for salvation is... God's grace. God does all the work in saving us. He paid for his children's sins by sacrificial atonement, which cleansed us. He chose us by grace. He made us alive with Christ. He raised us with Christ and He seated us with Christ in the heavenly places. We observe this in these verses.

What do you disagree with in my observation?

 

[AustinC]

The fiction of the gift of faith has been shown to be bogus over and over, yet this Calvinist continues to deny the obvious. How can someone be saved through or on the basis of faith, before they have faith? No answer will be forthcoming.

A person is saved by grace. Paul tells us...twice...for emphasis.

Ephesians 2:5,8 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[percho]

Let me be clear. I believe Noah was righteous, I believe Noah loved God.

Bot why did Noah love God. 1 John 4 tells us because God first loved Noah. To faith Noah did the things he did. That faith being the faith spoken of in Gal 3:23 The faith of, Before the coming of the faith.

Noah was chosen and called of God for the purpose of God.. Maintaining all living things including man unto the coming of the faith. For a virgin woman to be conceived of a human child out of Spirit and for that virgin to bring forth that human child. For that child to grow into a man and learn through sufferings unto death, the obedience. of faith.
To die the death assigned to sin.

That man child did that. Became obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Phil 2:8
The next word. Wherefore, because of that learned obedience of faith. That is when the faith came. Phil 2:9 God also hath highly exalted him, (Heb 5:7 saved him out of the dead, by raising him from the dead, Quickening him 1 Pet 3:18 1 Cor 15:45.) and given him a name which is above every name:

That is why Noah was righteous.

All of those passages in Heb 11 are To Faith, dative

 

[Derf B]

Amen.

What would that means be, that is different than what you see in the Bible, Derf?

I think that’s more of a question for you than me. What do you propose? It’s obviously a different action on the part of God, since it isn’t just the death of Christ.

Question:
According to the totality of the Scriptures that you have studied thus far,
Does God save apart from anything a man or woman wishes, or do our wishes determine His?

Such is a false dichotomy. Just because a person decides he wants God’s mercy, after God has offered it, doesn’t mean he is somehow forcing God to do something He doesn’t want.

But you’ve confirmed for me that the real answer to this perpetual argument between Calvinists and Arminians is in discarding unsupported presuppositions—specifically the one that says God knows who is going to be saved before the people exist.


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